Supreme Court Picks up Same Sex Marriage - Likely Outcome?

Will Same Sex Marriage be supported by the US Supreme Court

Yes
5
42%
Yes
5
42%
No
1
8%
No
1
8%
 
Total votes: 12
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Leah
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Re: Supreme Court Picks up Same Sex Marriage - Likely Outcom

Postby Leah » Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:58 pm

Glaucon wrote:Many republicans seem to 'sense' the change on the wind, seem to feel that their position against gay marriage is not longer the electoral 'sure winner' it once was in most of the US and may become a 'sure loser' instead.


Heh, see, the problem here is that people keep doing that "monolithic entity" thing, too.

We've resorted to labels. People are "just" democrats, or "just" republicans. There can't be anything else to them. They can't have a range of views on a range of issues.

People forget that there are LGBT members of the Republican Party. That there are pro-choice members of the Republican Party. That there are women in the Republican Party. Athiests, African Americans, Asian Americans, Native Americans...

But hey. Labels are fun and always 100% accurate. ;)
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Glaucon
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Re: Supreme Court Picks up Same Sex Marriage - Likely Outcom

Postby Glaucon » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:10 am

@ Leah:

People are sheep. Herd animals. Armies typically move in one direction without having to be instructed to. And so do leaderless crowds.

And this is especially true for people in politics. They need to move in groups, large groups preferably, because without the numbers represented by such large groups, they have no power.

So, the 'label' is actually REALLY IMPORTANT. Not just because some people fit into category X or Y, but because they IDENTIFY with the label, and let the 'ideology' coming with the label SHAPE their opinions. Why ELSE would you see such a strong correlation between people that, say, a) Want low taxes b) Are christians c) Are 'tough' on immigration d) Want the USA to have a stronger military? There is no inherent reason for someone who wants low taxes to want a stronger military (after all, that has to be paid for with taxes) or for a christian to want a stronger military ('turn the other cheek') or want low taxes ('give unto the emperor') or be against illegal immigrants (Jesus WAS an illegal immigrant himself, probably). So, why do a lot of these views form a related cluster with many Americans? Because of the label/party ideology.

This is especially true for the political animal, the career politician. Sure, you may have your Ralph Naders and your Ron Pauls, but the obvious way to get ahead in a political party is to tow the party-line, to 'fit the bill' perfectly, without many dissenting opinions.

And such career politicians are generally very keen to keep their fingers on the 'pulse' of their party, to follow what they feel is the consensus within it. USA parties may not have 'chief whips'
like the UK parties do, but they do have party organisations that try to make everyone on a ticket of their party fall in line. But even without those, people would be alligning themselves to 'fit' with the current party-line. And if that 'line' is uncertain... under internal discussion, they will become careful, go silent on it. This 'mechanism' is pretty much a given for any political party, anywhere.

So... as much as you may resent 'labels'... you cannot understand politics in modern democracies without considering them.
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Re: Supreme Court Picks up Same Sex Marriage - Likely Outcom

Postby Alice McConnell » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:21 am

Labels schmabels, but... the group tag thing is really important in politics, I agree.

About the OP: I'd guess it would be unlikely to be a loss for the pro gay marrriage side. As I understand it, they can either rule that it is a matter for individual states (rendering the whole DOM thing impotent) which is okay for that side, or they can rule it is not, in which case they will open up the possibility for a nation-wide right to gay marriage in the near future, regardless of what conservative states may want.
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Re: Supreme Court Picks up Same Sex Marriage - Likely Outcom

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:34 am

Leah wrote:We've resorted to labels. People are "just" democrats, or "just" republicans. There can't be anything else to them. They can't have a range of views on a range of issues.


It's the flaw of american democracy in my opinion. The more nuanced and complex political opinions of the people in the US probably would've been able to express themselves more clearly if the US had more than just two major parties.

Although I guess, that if decision making is done in the same way as in europe, that the sub-groups of a big party still might make a difference. When the senate needs to vote for things there might be some republicans or democrats still voting for things which the majority of their party might not want to vote for to still deliver a majority of votes to have those votes pass... Then again, if it's anything like in Europe then those "different" people within the party are usually not very welcome anymore after such votes or moments of decisionmaking and have to seek out a different party to continue their political career without too much trouble... So even if there are sub-groups within a big party, I think they'll more often than not be very careful with going against the overall wishes of their party...

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