Skilled Work, Without the Worker

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Anarch Allegiere
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Re: Skilled Work, Without the Worker

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:59 am

It would require a major shift in society.

Most people don't enjoy mathematics or anything related to it. Electronics and engineering however is heavily related to mathematics. (And these fields are a very minor part of the work-market today).

As said... factories like those in the example given can replace a workforce of a few thousand people with a workforce of a handful of engineers and technicians. Where do all those other remaining hundreds of people have to go to? Do we suddenly expect them to grow the IQ to be able to do jobs of this technical nature?

Is technological advance ethical if it means robbing the livelihood of a majority of people?

I'm an engineer myself though... and I'm well aware of the whole process behind the creation of machines like these. What's going on in the advance of the industry can be related to the saying that many people know:

"Give a man a fish and you'll feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you'll feed him for a lifetime."


The business version of this saying is:

"Give a man a fish and you'll feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you'll go out of business."

What is basically going on here is industries are teaching themselves how to fish without requiring the fishermen anymore. They're taking the productivity of the workers and make it into something they own instead so they don't have to pay others anymore, forcefully making workforces to 'go out of business'.

Rising unemployment and technological advance has always gone hand in hand... and we all know that they say technology improves faster and faster... The law of accelerating change or a more practical example, Moore's Law: ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore%27s_Law )

So at a certain point we will be asking ourselves the question:
"Is technological advance still justified?"
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Re: Skilled Work, Without the Worker

Postby Mat » Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:05 am

Kaitlin wrote:
What is basically going on here is industries are teaching themselves how to fish without requiring the fishermen anymore. They're taking the productivity of the workers and make it into something they own instead so they don't have to pay others anymore, forcefully making workforces to 'go out of business'.


But ultimately is this a bad thing? Shouldn't people also be required to evolve? Improve? Acquire new skills? The old contract between workers and business was always for a defined role with little competition regionally and certainly not globally. The customer base was also local. When you toss those constants out of the window you can't keep the same contract.

So at a certain point we will be asking ourselves the question:
"Is technological advance still justified?"


If it will equate to higher productivity and profit it will always be justified.

I do not know that there will be less jobs or jobs that require even more sophistication. I think it will be much like it is turning in the US everything being about service. Nobody has to actually make anything any more they just take turns waiting hand and feet on each other to pass around the money. Education is part of the problem today not only is it not productive in the US as in something is wrong and money does not seem to fix it as you spend more and people are still not as competitive.

There is also an issue of entitlement that comes with education we have a lot of jobs that are out there but people feel that they are beneath them to do them and would like to stay unemployed for as long as the government will allow instead of taking that job that is available today but not something you feel is up to your abilities.

Education is there for anyone who wants it today... sure you may be strapped with debt after but there is nothing that will stop you from going if you really want. It seems like lack of aptitude and intelligence will not even stop someone from the ability of going to higher education.
There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him
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Re: Skilled Work, Without the Worker

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:12 am

Kaitlin wrote:
What is basically going on here is industries are teaching themselves how to fish without requiring the fishermen anymore. They're taking the productivity of the workers and make it into something they own instead so they don't have to pay others anymore, forcefully making workforces to 'go out of business'.


But ultimately is this a bad thing? Shouldn't people also be required to evolve? Improve? Acquire new skills? The old contract between workers and business was always for a defined role with little competition regionally and certainly not globally. The customer base was also local. When you toss those constants out of the window you can't keep the same contract.


Humans can't improve as fast as technology does. That's the problem. Sure... if those those few hundred people who lose their jobs have the resources, time and even the intelligence to be trained into engineers then go ahead.

Reality doesn't work that way though. What you'll get is higher productivity and more profit going into the pockets of less people. And more and more people sitting on the streets without having anywhere to go.

Better education obviously is always good, but the IQ of people doesn't necessarily go up as fast as technology requires them because the education has become better.

All in all it probably might balance itself out naturally, but I'm still sceptical about it. Even today there is a huge shortage of engineers and technicians already, the ability to create and maintain projects as the example given is severely limited by the lack of qualified people available.
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Re: Skilled Work, Without the Worker

Postby Mat » Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:18 am

Engineering does not require a high IQ. Any average person could be an engineer if they have the discipline. As with most educational activities very little has to do with how much money is being spend on it or the IQ of the student it is all about the discipline of the student and how devoted they are to learning.
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Re: Skilled Work, Without the Worker

Postby Vylixan » Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:27 am

So what do we do with all those people when everything is automated by bots ? Just killed them ? After all they are only a burden for the society that has a job :P Right ?
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Re: Skilled Work, Without the Worker

Postby Mat » Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:29 am

Vylixan wrote:So what do we do with all those people when everything is automated by bots ? Just killed them ? After all they are only a burden for the society that has a job :P Right ?

Why is it any ones responsibility to DO anything with them there is plenty of opportunity available if they want to DO something with themselves after.
There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him
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Re: Skilled Work, Without the Worker

Postby Dyce » Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:29 am

Unfortunately, robots are becoming obsolete already.

Star Trek's replicators are on the way.

Take a look:

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/lisa_h ... nting.html
Resolver Bouchard
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Re: Skilled Work, Without the Worker

Postby Resolver Bouchard » Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:43 am

Mat wrote:Engineering does not require a high IQ. Any average person could be an engineer if they have the discipline. As with most educational activities very little has to do with how much money is being spend on it or the IQ of the student it is all about the discipline of the student and how devoted they are to learning.


Wrong. Engineering is like all fields of study, you don't use 95% of what you've learned ever again once you graduate. Its all abouut your ability to adapt and think.

IQ is absolutely essential, you don't get innovation through discipline, its pretty much the exact opposite of discipline really.
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Re: Skilled Work, Without the Worker

Postby Mat » Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:47 am

Resolver Bouchard wrote:
Mat wrote:Engineering does not require a high IQ. Any average person could be an engineer if they have the discipline. As with most educational activities very little has to do with how much money is being spend on it or the IQ of the student it is all about the discipline of the student and how devoted they are to learning.


Wrong. Engineering is like all fields of study, you don't use 95% of what you've learned ever again once you graduate. Its all abouut your ability to adapt and think.

IQ is absolutely essential, you don't get innovation through discipline, its pretty much the exact opposite of discipline really.

Wrong innovation is the result of hard work meeting opportunity. It is about planning and dedication. Sure the original sketch on the bar napkin may have been innovative but the transformation between the idea and the reality is all about dedication.
There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him
Resolver Bouchard
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Re: Skilled Work, Without the Worker

Postby Resolver Bouchard » Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:54 am

Mat wrote:
Resolver Bouchard wrote:
Mat wrote:Engineering does not require a high IQ. Any average person could be an engineer if they have the discipline. As with most educational activities very little has to do with how much money is being spend on it or the IQ of the student it is all about the discipline of the student and how devoted they are to learning.


Wrong. Engineering is like all fields of study, you don't use 95% of what you've learned ever again once you graduate. Its all abouut your ability to adapt and think.

IQ is absolutely essential, you don't get innovation through discipline, its pretty much the exact opposite of discipline really.

Wrong innovation is the result of hard work meeting opportunity. It is about planning and dedication. Sure the original sketch on the bar napkin may have been innovative but the transformation between the idea and the reality is all about dedication.


Wrong. You clearly have no understanding what engineering is.

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