Obamacare, What are your thoughts?

Mat
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Re: Obamacare, What are your thoughts?

Postby Mat » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:51 pm

One good thing that I have just read is that those who are legally allowed to work in the US even though they are in the US illegally will not be eligible for coverage by obamacare or any of the provisions in it.


http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/politics/2012/09/18/change-to-obama-health-care-law-negative-sign-for-immigrants/
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Glaucon
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Re: Obamacare, What are your thoughts?

Postby Glaucon » Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:57 am

Mat wrote:I don't think my party has ever been in power in the us. But it is not a matter who handles it better it is a matter that this is not something that the gvt has any business handling at all.


Ah, so you are a libertarian, again? No longer backing Ryan and his friends?

And 'no business'? I get you feel that way, but I am fairly sure you have no real arguments to back it up. The government has business handling whatever it handles if the people decide it should handle it, in terms of democratic legitimacy. Legal legitimacy doesn't come into it, long-term, because laws can always be changed. Moral legitimacy? I don't think you want to argue that (a bit out of your depth, clearly, or so it seemed in that fairness thread, where you basically offered nothing more than stating you felt how you felt, over and over). Religious legitimacy? It doesn't apply, at least, not with Christianity ('give unto the emperor...', etc.).

You are beyond reason, on this. But beyond the political/religious convictions of the politically entrenched, the dogma's, ideology and articles of faith, there are real concerns, about what works, and what doesn't. It is by no means clear that Obamacare is the best possible system. The previous system clearly didn't work well. And the American people (and especially it's politicians) have done the American a great diservice by making this all about blind adherence to principles rather than a serious examination about how to improve things in practical terms. It is like having theological debate on how best to plug the breach in the side of the ship one is sailing on. Utterly retarded.
Mat
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Re: Obamacare, What are your thoughts?

Postby Mat » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:37 am

Glaucon wrote:
Mat wrote:I don't think my party has ever been in power in the us. But it is not a matter who handles it better it is a matter that this is not something that the gvt has any business handling at all.


Ah, so you are a libertarian, again? No longer backing Ryan and his friends?

And 'no business'? I get you feel that way, but I am fairly sure you have no real arguments to back it up. The government has business handling whatever it handles if the people decide it should handle it, in terms of democratic legitimacy. Legal legitimacy doesn't come into it, long-term, because laws can always be changed. Moral legitimacy? I don't think you want to argue that (a bit out of your depth, clearly, or so it seemed in that fairness thread, where you basically offered nothing more than stating you felt how you felt, over and over). Religious legitimacy? It doesn't apply, at least, not with Christianity ('give unto the emperor...', etc.).

You are beyond reason, on this. But beyond the political/religious convictions of the politically entrenched, the dogma's, ideology and articles of faith, there are real concerns, about what works, and what doesn't. It is by no means clear that Obamacare is the best possible system. The previous system clearly didn't work well. And the American people (and especially it's politicians) have done the American a great diservice by making this all about blind adherence to principles rather than a serious examination about how to improve things in practical terms. It is like having theological debate on how best to plug the breach in the side of the ship one is sailing on. Utterly retarded.

As you said laws are not static and I work to have the laws in a way that I want as others do as well. For me Obamacare is not consistent with the founding of the country and moves the country in a way that I do not wish to see so I will push against that in every legal means available.
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Mat
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Re: Obamacare, What are your thoughts?

Postby Mat » Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:26 pm

New reports indicate that 30 billion will remain uninsured under obamacare and six million of those people will decide to pay the tax penalty instead of taking the insurance. Those that are exempt from paying the tax is a combination of illegal immigrants and those who make to little to pay any federal income taxes. This will largely be a tax on the middle income.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/inside-politics/2012/sep/19/more-americans-expected-pay-health-insurance-penal/
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Glaucon
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Re: Obamacare, What are your thoughts?

Postby Glaucon » Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:38 pm

Mat wrote:New reports indicate that 30 billion will remain uninsured under obamacare and six million of those people will decide to pay the tax penalty instead of taking the insurance. Those that are exempt from paying the tax is a combination of illegal immigrants and those who make to little to pay any federal income taxes. This will largely be a tax on the middle income.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/inside-politics/2012/sep/19/more-americans-expected-pay-health-insurance-penal/


Well, like you always say: that is up to them. People make their own choices. If they have money enough to spare to do this, or they want to make some political gesture, that's fine with me. People can also choose NOT to use the water from the tap and buy bottled water instead. Doesn't mean it is a bad thing that there is water coming from the tap, in general (though you probably think it is a terrible idea, typical democratic welfarequeen entitlement, the whole running water thing).
Last edited by Glaucon on Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mat
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Re: Obamacare, What are your thoughts?

Postby Mat » Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:39 pm

Glaucon wrote:
Mat wrote:New reports indicate that 30 billion will remain uninsured under obamacare and six million of those people will decide to pay the tax penalty instead of taking the insurance. Those that are exempt from paying the tax is a combination of illegal immigrants and those who make to little to pay any federal income taxes. This will largely be a tax on the middle income.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/inside-politics/2012/sep/19/more-americans-expected-pay-health-insurance-penal/


Well, like you always say: that is up to them. People make their own choices. If they have money enough to spare to do this, or they want to make some political gesture, that's fine with me. People can also choose NOT to use the water from the tap and buy bottled water instead.

yep... so much for not raising the taxes on the middle class.
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Glaucon
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Re: Obamacare, What are your thoughts?

Postby Glaucon » Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:42 pm

Well, since it is defined as a tax, now, I guess you are right. Then again, the middle-class will be very likely to get coverage rather than pay this tax. If they decide not to, and suffer as a result, that is on them.
Mat
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Re: Obamacare, What are your thoughts?

Postby Mat » Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:47 pm

Glaucon wrote:Well, since it is defined as a tax, now, I guess you are right. Then again, the middle-class will be very likely to get coverage rather than pay this tax. If they decide not to, and suffer as a result, that is on them.

May not have all that much of a choice the middle class is where the cut off will be where the actual squeeze will be and it not be about making a point. They like many times will make to much money to get the stuff free but not enough to really be able to handle the cost without hardship.
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Echo
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Re: Obamacare, What are your thoughts?

Postby Echo » Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:52 pm

Mat wrote:May not have all that much of a choice the middle class is where the cut off will be where the actual squeeze will be and it not be about making a point. They like many times will make to much money to get the stuff free but not enough to really be able to handle the cost without hardship.


I think you just defined middle. Squeezed at both ends.
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Mat
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Re: Obamacare, What are your thoughts?

Postby Mat » Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:39 pm

I am glad to see that the Supreme Court will decide if it is constitutional to force companies to provide specific services at no deductible like birth control. Currently it depends on where you live as different appeals courts have decided differently. I personally hope that they find it unconstitutional and deal another blow to this unpopular piece of legislation.
There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him

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