Obamacare, What are your thoughts?

Apple
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Re: Obamacare, What are your thoughts?

Postby Apple » Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:27 am

Res ipsa loquitur.
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Rob
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Re: Obamacare, What are your thoughts?

Postby Rob » Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:35 am

Kaitlin wrote:
Festus wrote:No different at all. ACA doesn't go far enough, in my opinion. Regulation of pharma and insurance costs are where the real problem is.


Now on this we agree 100%.


Hit the nail on the head. A self respecting democracy should never allow health care to be entirely regulated by the market economy. Health care is not an industry that should be profit based because health care is a NEED, it is not a luxury. What's next, want to commercialize the fire department and the police force as well?

"Sorry m'am we will not come and put out the fire and save your family still inside, you are not insured..."

Talk about a slippery slope.
...

Re: Obamacare, What are your thoughts?

Postby ... » Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:38 am

Yuls wrote:Actually, what I found irksome was the "Most Americans are this" and "Most Americans are that" thing. People on the internet are going to be slightly nuttier than average, but even here clearly not every American shares Mat's views. See, e.g. Kaitlin, and myself, and several others.


It was actually 'why do so many' - since on this forum at least it seems to be about 50/50. Which seems like a disproportionately high level of people with internet access to misunderstand what socialism is. No matter, I understand being defensive of one's own country. Again, it wasn't meant to be condescending, and I apologise if it came off that way.

Yuls wrote:The peer reviewed papers thing just made me "lol." Do people do that?


Yep.

Yuls wrote:I mean like, outside of academia?


Aha.

Yuls wrote:And would you ever even want to interact with a person who comes home from a hard day at work and catches up on the latest issue of the American Economic Review?


Yeah.

Yuls wrote:Peer review papers aren't it.


Not for everyone, obviously.

I guess you were going for a little payback condescension, huh? I'll take it.
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Re: Obamacare, What are your thoughts?

Postby Mat » Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:39 am

Rob wrote:
Kaitlin wrote:
Festus wrote:No different at all. ACA doesn't go far enough, in my opinion. Regulation of pharma and insurance costs are where the real problem is.


Now on this we agree 100%.


Hit the nail on the head. A self respecting democracy should never allow health care to be entirely regulated by the market economy. Health care is not an industry that should be profit based because health care is a NEED, it is not a luxury. What's next, want to commercialize the fire department and the police force as well?

"Sorry m'am we will not come and put out the fire and save your family still inside, you are not insured..."

Talk about a slippery slope.

There is nothing about democracy that makes it inconsistent with a completely free market economy.

I see nothing wrong with privatizing police, fire, ems etc. Most ambulance services today in the US are private and even some towns are experimenting with private fire departments.
There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him
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Festus
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Re: Obamacare, What are your thoughts?

Postby Festus » Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:45 pm

Rob wrote:
Kaitlin wrote:
Festus wrote:No different at all. ACA doesn't go far enough, in my opinion. Regulation of pharma and insurance costs are where the real problem is.


Now on this we agree 100%.


Hit the nail on the head. A self respecting democracy should never allow health care to be entirely regulated by the market economy. Health care is not an industry that should be profit based because health care is a NEED, it is not a luxury. What's next, want to commercialize the fire department and the police force as well?

"Sorry m'am we will not come and put out the fire and save your family still inside, you are not insured..."

Talk about a slippery slope.


Unfortunately that's where we are headed, although not quite in the same way.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/12/07/9272989-firefighters-let-home-burn-over-75-fee-again?lite

Tax issues are so contentious in the US that every dime that might go to public services is scrutinized, while fat cats hide their pork projects so they don't lose a cent. We are screwed.
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Rob
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Re: Obamacare, What are your thoughts?

Postby Rob » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:04 pm

Mat wrote:I see nothing wrong with privatizing police, fire, ems etc. Most ambulance services today in the US are private and even some towns are experimenting with private fire departments.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6mYGcNgKn8

You are going backwards, not forward.
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Re: Obamacare, What are your thoughts?

Postby Mat » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:19 pm

Rob wrote:
Mat wrote:I see nothing wrong with privatizing police, fire, ems etc. Most ambulance services today in the US are private and even some towns are experimenting with private fire departments.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6mYGcNgKn8

You are going backwards, not forward.

Every move is not a positive move. There is no end goal that has been agreed to as to moving forward or backward.
There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him
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Re: Obamacare, What are your thoughts?

Postby Jenny1919 » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:21 pm

Mat wrote:I see nothing wrong with privatizing police, fire, ems etc. Most ambulance services today in the US are private and even some towns are experimenting with private fire departments.


Dont think there is too big an issue here...If they recieve the same training.. Though somehow their salaries need tobe paid..

Think the private sector can do alot of things better and cheaper and faster than the government
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Rob
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Re: Obamacare, What are your thoughts?

Postby Rob » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:25 pm

Mat wrote:There is no end goal that has been agreed to as to moving forward or backward.


Ok Yoda..
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Re: Obamacare, What are your thoughts?

Postby Danika Stenvaag » Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:51 am

the fear and aversion by some of socialized medicine is astounding. those against obamacare have written here it’s socialist, takes away from free choice, will raise costs... but at least on paper, it’s actually the opposite. it will stir more free economy, offer more choices, especially to the disenfranchised, and lower costs, saving trillions of dollars over the next few decades.

i’m not a socialist but let me tell you what it is. socialism, like capitalism, is an economic system, not a political one. someone here argued fearfully that obamacare invoked the united socialist states of america. huh? would you say united capitalist states of america is any better? both sound silly in this context. they’re economic forces.

both, socialism and capitalism coexist in balance here in the united states and are dynamic forces that make things go. if you take one, or the other away, the system would grind to a halt. socialism has been around a long, long time in this country. the united states is both capitalist and partly a socialist country. to some degree or another, the government has always gotten involved in the economy: the railroads, the homestead act, the power grid, the interstate highway system, the internet, and the space program which is now leading to private enterprise in space. these are products of the government creating markets or meeting demand, and then getting out of the way to allow capitalism to work. most in the usa wouldn't call this socialism. they would call it good governance.

in the case of medicare, the older you are, the less insurable you are. in a free market, in which government coercion is completely absent from the exchange of commodities and securities, the elderly would die sooner. that's how markets work and this is why we have socialized medicine to protect those that need it the most.

another kind of socialism is what libertarian republicans approve of. socialism for corporations and the rich. corporate welfare is often wrapped in the rhetoric of job creation.

so those of you that scream the loudest that obamacare is socialist and fear losing free choice need to be more honest and educate yourself. more americans after reviewing what obamacare really does are liking what they see and the approval rating is rising.

good article here in the new york times dispelling some of the myths of obamacare:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/16/opinion/keller-five-obamacare-myths.html?pagewanted=all

another way to look at is would be this way. we’re talking about managed care where insurance companies can’t gouge you or deny you care. the system is better regulated. it’s not a bunch of government run hospitals. you’re not going to be shipped in cattle cars to a government run hospital and examined by masked cold and sterile looking people wearing white lab coats with ‘u.s. government’ printed on their lapels.

people scream they don’t want government involved in anything. but consider this analogy. we have no smoking laws to protect those that don’t smoke. i’m sure many of you wouldn’t want to sit in a restaurant while someone in the booth next to you blasts the tuba and farts nonstop. it’s just not cool. second hand smoke is just as annoying to many so we have regulations. a lot of people are too stupid to wear seatbelts so we have laws saying wear them. people like to drive and text or talk on the cell phone and most can’t multi-task and drive safely so more laws are being enacted to protect people and stop cell phone use while driving.

there are people who argue that the free market, corporations, can regulate themselves. but that’s like saying the wolf can guard the chicken coop. corporations are about profit. they don’t fucking care about protecting the chickens, that’s not their job. they want to eat them. you need an impartial regulator and it’s not corporations. this is where government is needed for some regulations. a balance.

verizon recently tried to censor the internet. they wanted the power to decide what sites their subscribers can visit and preferably regulate searches and redirect them to verizon controlled interests. another example of why corporations don’t really care about your personal freedoms. what verizon was trying to do is worse than china.

there is another thread that popped up on the gorums about illegal aliens... aliens are being demonized for all our woes. know what? corporations are hiring them. and you can vote with your feet and not go to burger king or mcdonalds or patronize any business that hires and exploits low paid undocumented workers. that’s free trade. ironically, the ones that scream the loudest for less government involvement want huge government controlled walls at the borders and more arrests and deportations. wtf? if corporations and people stopped using the services of undocumented workers, they wouldn’t come here. they aren’t here for the health care i’ll tell you that right now. they’re here for jobs. and while i’m on a rant... stop buying illegal drugs from dealers and the problem with mexican drug cartels will go away, too. markets are created by demand.

i liked this piece from bill maher... if obama is a socialist, he’s a lousy one.... ha ha loved it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AIIEG9yhZ4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AIIEG9yhZ4
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