Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Tertionus
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Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Postby Tertionus » Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:09 pm

It's my experience that articles are best judged on a standalone basis, rather than in an overall 'publication' basis. There are some very good articles in some very bad publication, and vice versa.

As for this case, unless they're planning to go to North Korea for the jury, a fair trial is impossible, at this point.
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Glaucon
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Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Postby Glaucon » Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:03 pm

I agree wholeheartedly with the first linked article. The way this was hyped before the facts were known, the way people jumped to conclusions, the way people from both sides of the national US-pastime (fighting the culture war) jumped on it... is really rather disgraceful, I feel. If a fair and unbiased justice system is your goal, this whole hype highlights the 'sickness' of the system quite well.
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Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Postby Glaucon » Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:19 pm

Hmmm, you may disagree, of course. Naturally... my previous post included a j'accuse towards you (and many others in this thread). I implicitly accused you of being on one side in the culture wars... ideologically biased. And well... I mean no disrespect. You know I appreciate you as a poster, but... I do believe you are.

I have accused Mat of being 'biased' that way (but for the other side), which led him to foe me. Your insistence that that 'doctored' recording was insignificant does lead me to conclude you are also possessed of 'the spirit of party' (but the 'liberal' side, in your case). I get how politics/parties work. If you are in a fight, it isn't about being unbiased. Fox is the enemy/are the good guys, and Michael Moore is the devil/hero. It is how things go... how people behave. Without that social mechanism, there would have been a lot less wars fought. And maybe this kind of enthusiasm for 'one's own side' and ones ideals is good for something. But... if you are interested in justice in a particular case, this kind of thinking (the thing I THINK you are 'suffering' from on this issue... I just think it... up to you to know for sure) just doesn't seem appropriate. Justice is supposed to be blind. Not a pundit.
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Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Postby Mat » Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:55 pm

Kaitlin wrote:
I am absolutely on the side of race being all up in this entire issue. I have no problem with that being screamed from the rooftops. It is unacceptable.

Some crazy people run around all the time screaming the world is going to end tomorrow even if it has no bases in fact.
There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him
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Glaucon
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Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Postby Glaucon » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:37 am

Hmmm, well... you culture warriors fight on, then. Always lots of stuff to fight over, to see only one side of. 98 percentages, pizza, birth control pills, debt, creationism in Tennessee, racism, an election... Enjoy the holy wars. :)
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Glaucon
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Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Postby Glaucon » Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:56 pm

Kaitlin wrote:
Glaucon wrote:Hmmm, well... you culture warriors fight on, then. Always lots of stuff to fight over, to see only one side of. 98 percentages, pizza, birth control pills, debt, creationism in Tennessee, racism, an election... Enjoy the holy wars. :)


Glaucon the fact that you lump racism in with the debt, birth control pills etc says it all. It is exactly why I don't have a problem at all with issues like this causing things to bubble over.


Ehm... you feel that a woman's rights to reproductive self-determination pales in light of the issue of racism in the justice system? For shame! :o

(Just kidding... maybe racism is a bigger issue that whether or not birth control gets included in a mandate. Fair enough. ;) )

Not sure it 'says it all'. But I am sure it seems so to you. I think that Mat told me that this or that thing I said 'said it all' as well, some time ago.

It is often how things work out when the spirit of party is in charge. Those that don't declare loyalty to one side of the other are regarded as the enemy by both. :)

(Which is why the 'spirit of party' reinforces itself once it is established. Independents tend to be few and always under suspicion of really being the 'opposition' from either side. You are either with them or against them. Being in the reasonable middle isn't good for one's career in politics, for the most part. People like clear choices, Red, Blue... not some purple with yellow spots that they would need to examine more closely before they can make sense of it.
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Glaucon
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Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Postby Glaucon » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:29 pm

Kaitlin wrote:Forgive me for not really understanding at all what the death of this teenager has to do with politics.


Eh? Uhm... well...

1. Much of the 'outrage' caused by this incident was directed at the 'stand your ground' law. Laws are made by politicians, and subject to political debate. Thus, outrage about such a law in public discourse is directly political.

2. Politicians commented on it, and commented on politicians commenting on it. Some were wearing hoodies. Same with pundits and politically affiliated news networks.

3. The call to do something about racism is pretty much a political message, even if it is also a 'moral' one.

3. Even in this thread, the political 'divide' was along familiar lines (to those that have been following debates on this forum).
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Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Postby Mat » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:48 pm

Glaucon wrote:
3. Even in this thread, the political 'divide' was along familiar lines (to those that have been following debates on this forum).

This topic and your stance is divided along political lines I will grant you that, however I think you are wrong normally I would not expect you and I to share the same opinion especially when that opinion seems to fall along party lines.
There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him
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Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Postby Mat » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:04 pm

Kaitlin wrote:You can choose to believe that blacks have a sensitivity about race given the history in this country but you can equally assume that non black Americans have blinders on. The reality lies somewhere in the middle if you are an optimist. I am not and as I stated early on in this thread that is still a pretty sad position for this country to be in at this point in history. Whether you are Team Zimmerman or Team Martin once fact is certainly true. If this man had been minding his own business or at a minimum listened to the directions given to him by the police dispatcher this teenager would still be alive.

You can equally assume that some want the law to be followed and justice done according to the law whatever that may be or wherever it may lead. I just want the law followed and to me Mr Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty, in a court of law as is the law of our land.

What exactly is the racial angle in this case anyway, other than the obvious fact that one person was hispanic and the other was black?
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Glaucon
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Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Postby Glaucon » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:46 pm

Kaitlin wrote:The opinions expressed in this thread and nationwide are not political in the least but follow along typical racial lines.


Sorry, but that is nonsense. Maybe you don't like the word 'political', and of course, you can define your terms any way you want to, but... ah well... doesn't matter. Just a semantic issue. Call it non-political if you want to. *shrug*

That is not the real nonsense part. The real nonsense part is where you say that the opinions in this thread follow along typical racial lines. I have no clue what the 'race' of people posting here is. I don't think you do either. I doubt it played any part in this debate, but even IF IT DID, neither me or you could tell one way or another, since this isn't a forum on which we post under our RL identities, let alone our 'race'.

The average black American has strong views on the case, perceiving that Zimmerman is guilty of a crime and that race has played a major factor in the case. Nonblacks, by contrast, are much less likely to think Zimmerman is guilty and are substantially less likely to believe that race was a factor.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/153776/Blacks-Nonblacks-Hold-Sharply-Different-Views-Martin-Case.aspx


None of that means that the debate is one abour race only. There are many who are not black on the 'outrage' side of this debate. And I am sure many of them aren't there just because they 'like african americans' or something. If Martin had been white, it might have gotten less attention, not sure... but much of the same sort of stuff would likely have come up (like that 'stand your ground' law, even if it turns out to be irrelevant to the case).

You can choose to believe that blacks have a sensitivity about race given the history in this country but you can equally assume that non black Americans have blinders on. The reality lies somewhere in the middle if you are an optimist. I am not and as I stated early on in this thread that is still a pretty sad position for this country to be in at this point in history.


It is quite possible that race-related prejudices played a part in this case. I don't know. I am not black. I hope that if I was black, I would not feel inclined to let my 'racial identity' compel me to let myself be persuaded that I did know, when I didn't.

Whether you are Team Zimmerman or Team Martin one fact is certainly true. If this man had been minding his own business or at a minimum listened to the directions given to him by the police dispatcher this teenager would still be alive.


Agreed. I see no reason to be on 'Team Zimmerman'. I just don't believe in being on any 'Team' in cases like these. More suitable for sports and speculation about which dude the teenage girl in some movie will side with.

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