Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

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Glaucon
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Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Postby Glaucon » Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:54 pm

Alright... I'll do the 'is it political or not' one. (All I have time for right now):

I define politics broadly.

1
a : the art or science of government
b : the art or science concerned with guiding or influencing governmental policy
c : the art or science concerned with winning and holding control over a government
2
: political actions, practices, or policies
3
a : political affairs or business; especially : competition between competing interest groups or individuals for power and leadership (as in a government)
b : political life especially as a principal activity or profession
c : political activities characterized by artful and often dishonest practices
4
: the political opinions or sympathies of a person
5
a : the total complex of relations between people living in society
b : relations or conduct in a particular area of experience especially as seen or dealt with from a political point of view <office politics> <ethnic politics>


I'd go with all of the above, including the ones under 5. Protesters against world poverty? Politics, in my book. Someone talking about christian values? Political. Someone talking about the right to privacy? Politics. Why do I define politics broadly? Because when stuff is part of a public debate that may (immediately or eventually) lead to collective or government action, laws, etc... it will become political (because that is about how society should be governed/ruled). I don't see discussions about racism, ethnicity etc. as being non-political, because all that is intricately linked to politics... and often those are at the center of the political stage, even.
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Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Postby Leah » Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:00 pm

Mat Vhargon wrote:Still to this point no actual evidence that THIS killing was race related nor the police / prosecution's response to it. Seems that this new hard nosed prosecutor for the state who is doing her job well as far as I can tell to this point has not charged Mr. Zimmerman with a hate crime nor has the charging document even hinted that it was race related in fact it seems to have gone out of its way to say the opposite. I hope that the truth comes out whatever that may be in the trial but until it does there just is no proof as of yet that race played a part in any way in this incident other than the news coverage after.

Sure we can throw up our arms and scream at the top of our lungs that racial profiling is wrong that treating someone different based on race is wrong I do not believe that is in question at all, however I have yet to see how that was done in this case. Sure some say that the police etc handled the case wrong but nobody has shown that they handled it any different than they normally would either, there has yet to be shown any pattern of behavior on the police's side that shows racial injustice in modern times at that location. The only thing offered up so far is some generic as of yet unsupported proposition that if the race were reversed that it would have been handled differently.


She hasn't charged him with a hate crime because Florida doesn't have any sort of legislation that covers hate crimes, Mat. She wasn't investigating him for a hate crime, either. The US Justice Department is doing that, and they have not yet rendered the conclusion of their investigation.
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Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Postby Kaitlin » Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:11 pm

Mat Vhargon wrote:Still to this point no actual evidence that THIS killing was race related nor the police / prosecution's response to it. Seems that this new hard nosed prosecutor for the state who is doing her job well as far as I can tell to this point has not charged Mr. Zimmerman with a hate crime nor has the charging document even hinted that it was race related in fact it seems to have gone out of its way to say the opposite.


Apparently you haven't read the affidavit. It clearly states that Zimmerman profiled Martin. I'm sure more will come out in trial about this angle. I never supported a label of a hate crime since I believe he shot the teenager in retaliation or fear after he accosted him. The only bit of a saving grace is there seems to be a third interpretation of f**cking "punks" rather than the racial slur but as I indicated to Glaucon I have always felt this discovery was irrelevant to the events of that night even after the second interpretation of "f**king cold".
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Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Postby Mat » Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:15 pm

Kaitlin wrote:
Mat Vhargon wrote:Still to this point no actual evidence that THIS killing was race related nor the police / prosecution's response to it. Seems that this new hard nosed prosecutor for the state who is doing her job well as far as I can tell to this point has not charged Mr. Zimmerman with a hate crime nor has the charging document even hinted that it was race related in fact it seems to have gone out of its way to say the opposite.


Apparently you haven't read the affidavit. It clearly states that Zimmerman profiled Martin.

that still has nothing to do with racial injustice it said that he profiled him not that he racially profiled him there is a big difference. By his own statement it is clear that he profiled him as he said that he looked suspicious you cannot come to such a conclusion without profiling someone and that profile may or may not have included race as a reason for suspicion we just do not know at this point.
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Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Postby Mat » Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:17 pm

Lia wrote:
She hasn't charged him with a hate crime because Florida doesn't have any sort of legislation that covers hate crimes, Mat. She wasn't investigating him for a hate crime, either. The US Justice Department is doing that, and they have not yet rendered the conclusion of their investigation.

That is partially true I do not know if there is a separate chargeable crime under Florida law but I do know that the state of Florida does specifically track hate crimes in of itself.

As for the Justice Department investigation we will have to see, they are privy to more information than we have at this time, however just on what has been released thus far I fail to see how they can conclude that it was a race related crime.

Actually my prediction is that Mr. Zimmerman will end up with a plea deal and agree to manslaughter and that will be the end of it all.
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Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Postby Mat » Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:13 pm

As more information is made available from the FBI investigation it seems to affirm that this was not a racially motivated crime.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/12/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
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Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Postby Mat » Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:28 pm

Looks like the judge will be replaced as it was ruled that Mr. Martin was not likely to get a fair trial by that judge.
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Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Postby Ronis Woodward » Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:51 am

I only managed to make it through several pages (6 or so I think) of replys, but I noticed a major trend of judging Zimmerman guilty, and assumptions that it was a hate crime.

Well I happen to hold a slightly differnt view of the whole situation. Zimmerman is innocent of manslaughter, and will remain that way untill one key event occurs.

1) His statement, that Trayvon knocked him down and was pummeling his head into the pavement is disproven.

Why is this whole case so simple for me? Because according to the way the stand your ground law is written, the events as given by the only survivor (Zimmerman in this case) is the only story we have to go on. And that story states Zimmerman felt threatened, and he had the right to defend his life, with lethal force at the time the shooting occured (the law will change in the near future if it hasn't already I am sure)

Now, what could change his status to guilty in my mind? The prosecutors have to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Zimmerman lied. They can do this by showing some form of surveilance of the scene...recorded voice from phone calls, videotaped from a bystanders cell phone etc. In my mind, eye witness testimony is never enough without solid physical evidence to prove a person is guilty of a crime, because lets face it...people lie, have bad memories, things happened to fast to register colors, etc, that renders human testimony inaccurate.

The other facts of the case, such as that Zimmerman aproached Trayvon first, they are immaterial for the manslaughter or murder charges, whichever they prefer, because Trayvon also had the option to run, and retreat from the situation, and appears to have instead decided to fight it out.

Finally the issue of Zimmerman carrying a concealed weapon while on citizens watch duty, that is a completely seperate charge from the manslaughter, and therefore if he was carrying illegally, (I believe he was, though my facts may be wrong, and I have not kept current with this whole hoopla) then he should be found guilty of carrying an illegal weapon. Now should he be found guilty of manslaughter, and carrying an illegal weapon, the manslaughter charges could be upgraded, but that is up to Florida criminal law.

Sorry for getting a bit wordy, but I had to at least get that out there. America was founded around innocent till proven guilty, and its hard to prove someone innocent when the entire possible jury pool is contaminated by everyone else already judging him guilty (and lets face it, people dont like to stand up for their beliefs that often anymore, they go with the flow instead)
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Glaucon
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Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Postby Glaucon » Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:42 am

Good post, well worded position.
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Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Postby Mat » Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:17 am

He was not carrying illegally. He had every right to carry his weapon according to the law during the time of the event. He may have been in violation of the rules of the community watch but at most that could only carry sanctions from the home owners association/community watch such as removing him from the position something I bet they have done by this point anyways.
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