Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

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Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Postby ~pancake~ » Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:54 pm

A split off thread for those who wish to debate the details, evidence, videos, eye witnesses, photographs, interviews and laws surrounding the Trayvon Marting killing.

The other thread was to advertise and invite people to a group, and to announce any upcoming events. I don't want those details lost in the other conversations people wish to have.
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Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Postby ~pancake~ » Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:25 pm

I'll copy and paste some of my other post here, if anyone wants to use that as a starting point for discussion.

~pancake~ wrote:1) Zimmerman sees black teenager wearing a hoodie
2) Zimmerman’s mind makes judgements about the character and motives of this young man
3) Zimmerman calls 911 and is told to stand down
4) Zimmerman pursues the young man anyway
5) Altercation ensues that none of us can say with certainty the details of
6) Zimmerman shoots and kills Trayvon Martin
7) Some comments suggest that Travyvon’s choice of clothing contributed to his death, that people make judgements when they see this, and that he is at least in part responsible because of that choice.

The question as to whether or not Zimmerman was technically justified in using lethal force under Florida’s “Stand your ground law” is a matter for the police and the courts. To date, as no arrest has been made, it would appear that perhaps the police have made that decision.

<snip>

The fact remains, that if a judgement call hadn’t been made because of how this young man looked, the altercation wouldn’t have happened and he wouldn’t have died.

The fact remains, if he hadn’t been followed because of the judgements that were made about him simply because of how he looked, he wouldn’t have died.

The “Stand your ground” law technically allows a person to defend themselves if they fear for their lives, but we need to think hard about what really, intially, caused that fear.


There is also the video of George Zimmerman after this incident to discuss.

The new witness accounts we've heard that Trayvon was the "aggressor" and on top during the altercation.

The information coming out now that George Zimmerman's family works in the justice system.

The concerns that police might not have collect evidence properly if they had already decided in that moment that it was justified.

The comments from the President.

Spike Lee using Twitter to spread the address of another family with the same name but who aren't related.

Your opinions about the protests and "hoodie marches" that have sprung up about this.

The intentions and potential misuse of the "stand your ground" law and claims of self defense.

A lot of things to discuss here.
Feel free to add anything.
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Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Postby Mynerva » Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:02 pm

I understand the outrage about this case. I think it is perfectly fine that people protest and ask for justice.

What I think is 100% unacceptable is putting out addresses on twitter the way Spike Lee did...and putting money on Zimmermann's head by some new black panther group.

I have no problem with keeping a close eye on the justice system and making sure this is not swept under the rug - but it is still important to wait and see what the evidence actually is.

No matter how disgusting a crime is - innocent until proven guilty has to be true for even the most horrible crimes.
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Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Postby Hawt Sommer » Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:31 pm

You ever had the shit kicked out of you because of the color of your skin?

I have.

This doesn't have any bearing on this case I'm sure, but it does give me a bias opinion on the subject.

But YES - I think we should continue to pour our thoughts and feed off the press to make more out of this, perhaps get ourselves into a frenzy- so we have some riots... shootings, more divisiveness and prejudice in this country.

An American thought another american was up to no good. There was an altercation and one american is dead.

In some parts of our country you shouldn't be out on the streets at night because that's when bad things happen. But I really want to point my finger at a black vs hispanic. Or asian vs white... irish vs italians or blue vs red....

yeah lets get back to 1965 when the real fun was happening.

The answer to this isn't complicated.

A guy was part of a neighborhood watch. Wasn't a good neighborhood. The guy could have "Profiled" the other guy... happens every day and there is no stopping it.

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Source: http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/november/hate_112210/hate_112210
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Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Postby ~pancake~ » Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:44 pm

Mynerva wrote:What I think is 100% unacceptable is putting out addresses on twitter the way Spike Lee did...and putting money on Zimmermann's head by some new black panther group.


Absolutely 100% agree.
Those acts should never have happened and should NOT be acceptable anywhere.

Advocating revenge or vigilantism will just beget more violence, more hate, more division, and more crime. That is not the solution to anything.
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Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Postby Glaucon » Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:10 pm

Mynerva wrote:I have no problem with keeping a close eye on the justice system and making sure this is not swept under the rug - but it is still important to wait and see what the evidence actually is.

No matter how disgusting a crime is - innocent until proven guilty has to be true for even the most horrible crimes.


I agree.

And I also don't quite know what to think about these hoodie protests. Personally, I don't have much regard for those that protests without actually wanting to change anything, just out of sheer moral outrage. It seems quite pointless to me, and maybe a tad hypocritical (because you pretend to want to DO something, but all you do is 'make a statement' without consequences, when there are REAL things to fight for. I mean... assuming it was an innocent guy ending up dead because of 'profiling' based on race or clothing, I get how this would spark outrage and attention, but... making the statement that this is bad seems so... obvious. Everyone in the US seems to agree, except for groups that aren't going to be affected by such protests (racists, bigots etc. tend not to be impressed by such things, I'd think).

And since it is not yet quite clear what happened, it might be that instead of it being a 'hate-crime' or, at least, something born from racism or prejudice, it was simply a tragic event. It seems pointless to be wearing a symbol derived from a crime that you don't know the details of.

I don't know that 'stand your ground' law, not really, so, even if it seems a bit odd, I cannot really comment. Maybe that law itself is something worth protesting. But the hoodie doesn't point to that, directly.

It seems odd that the police didn't fully investigate. That would smell of corruption. You could protest that (not sure if that would do much good... maybe it would, but prosecuting/firing corrupt police officers would be more effective). But maybe they did investigate it but had no hard evidence of foul play, or investigated enough to establish they didn't have a good case and decided to use scarce resources more productively. Hard to say, just yet.

Maybe this whole neighborhood watch thing is kind of scary, kind of fascist, something you should NOT encourage. Maybe it isn't very effective. Maybe it leads to dangerous situations, often. Maybe these volunteers should be doing something else with their spare time. But I am not sure the hoodie protest is about that either.

Mostly, this protest in the USA seems to be about 'moral outrage', a premature celebration of political correctness and anti racist sentiments. Nothing wrong with the last bit, but... all these celebs and media people doing it... it seems kind of phony, complacent, this exhibit of 'solidarity' with the moral majority over an issue everyone already agrees on (except that they use a symbol of a crime that may or may not have been committed). It is like people organizing a 'rally' when a child gets murdered. Of course, we can all agree that such a thing is really bad. But what are such protesters really trying to say? Expressing sympathy? Fair enough. But what are they protesting? Violence against children? What's the point: we already agree on it. Often, it seems to be more for the benefit of the protesters than for any goal that doesn't involve them. Like people joining hands singing Christmas songs. Nice enough, but hardly a statement. And of course, the ONE isolated incident incites all the outrage (especially when it is a RARE case), while the problems and ills that are far more frequent (like wars, hunger in far away countries, things deeply wrong with society etc. generate far less).

Don't get me wrong: at first glance, this DOES seem to be something worth 'judging'. But... sorry... these hoodie protests... too soon, if it is about the case itself. And too 'easy' if it is about other stuff.
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Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Postby ~pancake~ » Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:24 pm

Glaucon, a lot of the hoodie protests, photos, interviews, are in response to these comments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ljy_SHODEU

"The hoodie is as much responsible for Trayvon Martins death as George Zimmerman was"

"You cannot rehabilitate the hoodie"

The idea that this kind of rash judgement, profiling, is just part of society and we have to accept that doesn't sit well with a lot of people.

I would take issue if someone said a woman got raped because she was wearing a tight skirt. I would take issue with someone saing a transgendered man got stabbed because he was wearing makeup.

ETA: Most of us are not in a position to affect any big change, nor were any of us there so we don't have all the facts on this case, but we CAN speak out and say that comments like that, beliefs like that, are not ones we support. Can we "rehabilitate the hoodie"? Can we change people's instinct to judge or profile? I don't know, it's certainly possible that we cannot.

Whatever ends up coming of the particulars of this case, the kind of mentality that is spoken of in that video needs to be surfaced and spoken about if it's ever to change. Even if the conversations are futile, even if the images don't change people's instinctual reactions, sometimes we do what we can just knowing that we at least tried to be part of a solution, even if we fail.
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Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Postby Glaucon » Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:29 pm

I thought that that Geraldo guy was pretty well known for talking out of his ass. And everyone agrees that he is talking out of his ass here. When something happens, you are going to have some talking heads and general loonies talking out of their ass. I don't quite see why that is something that should lead people on TV, politicians in congress etc. to join a protest. Nearly all of these folks didn't join in protests against harming the environment (or against environmentalism), or for or against Obamacare, didn't take a stand on the issue of illegals (a huge issue in the US, whatever 'side' you are on), or for or against the War in Iraq, or SOPA/PIPA, or Occupy Wall Street. But on this issue, they get all brave and principled and take a stand (before they really know for sure what happened). And they get all 'oh, look at me, such a cute hoodie... I am so mad as hell and not going to take it any more, I am taking a stand'... on this issue, that as far as I can tell no one but God and the one or perhaps two people involved could really do anything about?

To me, that seems like pretty lame, and yet they seem to be very proud off their own 'involvement'. No one has really has any idea if a 'hoodie' really played any part, yet this item of clothing seems to be getting all the attention. I am sure they mean well, but I am not impressed. I wish people weren't so sheepish and complacent and intellectually lazy, that they took an interest in real issues, perhaps even in the cause of problems rather than getting worked up or even paying attention to what fucking Geraldo or another Bozo the Clown blurts out in some breakfast show. Discussing the 'hoodie'? Discussing Geraldo? Fine. But that is like forum discussions: nothing serious, just showbizz news, just Charlie Sheen bi-winning or Britney Spears shaving her head. Just entertainment.

Sure, if racism etc. was involved, that is sad (we don't know for sure yet, maybe we will never know). And nothing wrong with people expressing their dislike of racism. But this dress-up 'protest' looks to me like just a halloween party for media personalities. A fad. A hype. At least the anonymous 'protesters' (those that love to dress up in those 'V' masks/costumes) have an actual message that everyone isn't agreed on already.

And as for this sort of 'action' really 'stopping' racism...? I kind of doubt that. I have reason to doubt that. In parts of western Europe, people have been publicly condemning and protesting racism for many decades, ever since the nazis were defeated, really. And it seemed to have become a fringe thing, something for the ignorant and bigoted. And yet... all those protests and condemnations turned out not to mean much, with xenophobic parties, religious intolerance and antisemitism on the rise in many European countries (only mostly not outright 'racist' now, but generally anti Muslim & immigrant). Ideological winds can change pretty darned fast and no matter how many protests you have at one point, if public opinion shifts, they are quickly forgotten. The same 'sheepish' people happy to feel moral outrage about even the hint of racial profiling may turn out to be happy to ban head-covering/scarves for religious reason in schools or even in public streets a moment later. That is how much I think this sort of protest is worth: the same people wearing a 'hoodie' on TV may be echoing Geraldo the Clown and declare a hoodie an anti social garment in a few years. People are parroting sheep. They follow the direction of the herd.

(And sorry for the rants... lack of sleep)
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Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Postby Jani » Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:44 pm

Once upon a time the law read innocent until proven guilty. What ever happened to that in the eyes of so many of us? Why are we so quick to rush in judgement even before knowing all the facts, and in this case almost none of the facts.

Why now is everything racial or political fighting? What happened to us to get us where we are today? Why are we so quick to blame and then place the person in a category? Why should it matter if someone has conservative beliefs or liberal ones? Is it all the media that's doing this? Seems to me that's the first place I'd point fingers at as they surely are stitting the pot with every opurtunity.

As far as the Stand Your Ground law goes, is'nt that the same as telling a person they have the right to defend themselves?

If this sad event happened as Zimmerman told his side of the story and he was getting his head pounded on the pavement how can anyone blame him for shooting the person doing it? If not then he should be charged. But this is all up to the investigtion by the police. We gotta quit choosing sides, it's getting to the point of lunacy. As long as we keep choosing sides we'll never fix any of the probems we face.
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Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Postby Kaitlin » Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:57 pm

I find it so odd that people keep pushing this entire "innocent until proven guilty" theme. The only person who was innocent and found guilty in the eyes of this vigilante was this boy and he seems to have been sentenced to death.

I don't think it was right to have the man's address sent out in public but only for one reason. He might have family that was just as innocent as the life he took. Otherwise I could care less. He doesn't deserve anymore human decency than he offered.
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