All employers must offer Birth Control.

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Re: All employers must offer Birth Control.

Postby ... » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:45 pm

Mat Vhargon wrote:Not making a judgement call on the woman or anything but I think if that is the lifestyle that the guy or the girl is undertaking than pregnancy is the least of their worries.


Depends. If a person wants to engage in promiscuous sexual activity, it's entirely their prerogative. If they want to avoid STD's, hormonal birth control won't help them anyway. Condoms will. But if a person does engage in promiscuous activity, having calculated the risk involved in doing so with condoms, there is still an inequality in the possible consequences of condom failure. Which can be redressed by use of hormonal birth control.
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Re: All employers must offer Birth Control.

Postby Drevan » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:49 pm

Oor wrote:
Drevan wrote:Although viagra per pop costs more, less people need or use it and so it is covered same reason medicare DOESNT cover prescription glasses :egrin:


I understand the economical argument for Viagra being covered where prescription glasses are not - but if birth control is not covered where pregnancy, child-birth and the resultant child health costs are, the economical argument falls flat on it's arse.

So then we're left with, essentially, a pill that permits people to enjoy potentially extra-marital or gay sex (Viagra), and essentially promotes sex, against a pill (or implant, coil, etc) that stops a woman getting pregnant (inside or outside marriage) and has several other proven health benefits for women. I don't really see how the religious argument can be made. Unless they're only providing Viagra to married, heterosexual men coupled with fertile women.

One quick point, too - someone mentioned that birth control in the UK costs £7.65 per month. That's not the case. Even in England - the only UK nation left where people are charged for prescriptions - birth control prescriptions are free.

The libertarianish part of me agrees with Mat - that in a free market, health care providers should be free to sell whatever services they like for whatever prices they like, and the consumers will guide the market by purchasing the most affordable/relevant coverage over the less affordable/irrelevant coverage. And that those providers will be able to make informed decisions about whether providing X or decreasing the price by x% will increase the market share by a percentage that warrants it.

Alas, the humanistic/humanitarian part of me balks at the possibility that in one of the world's richest societies, citizens can be left without health care due to their lack of wealth.

Re: the abortion thing: "women should close their legs" is a trite and insignificant argument - more so when made with purposeful disingenuity by people who know better.

And 'consider adoption' might be more seriously considered when the approximate half-million children in care in the US already has decreased some. And if the 'consider adoption' argument is being made by the religious - maybe they could try reconsidering their stance on permitting gay couples to adopt the neglected and abandoned children of heterosexual people, before they suggest that adoption is the way to go.




Keep your Atheistic Rhetoric bullshit out of this please. No one ever mentioned Gays not being allowed to be Parents thru adoption except you. Stay on topic
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Re: All employers must offer Birth Control.

Postby Mat » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:49 pm

Oor wrote:
Mat Vhargon wrote:Not making a judgement call on the woman or anything but I think if that is the lifestyle that the guy or the girl is undertaking than pregnancy is the least of their worries.


Depends. If a person wants to engage in promiscuous sexual activity, it's entirely their prerogative. If they want to avoid STD's, hormonal birth control won't help them anyway. Condoms will. But if a person does engage in promiscuous activity, having calculated the risk involved in doing so with condoms, there is still an inequality in the possible consequences of condom failure. Which can be redressed by use of hormonal birth control.

Yea I still do not see the inequality there the risk is present for both should they decide to proceed and condoms are not being given out either at the pharmacy with or without a prescription. If birth control pills are going to be made available for the sole purpose of preventing pregnancy than condoms must also be included in the health plan at a shared cost to everyone same as the pill.
There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him
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Re: All employers must offer Birth Control.

Postby TreatRothschild » Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:42 pm

Kaitlin wrote:
Mat Vhargon wrote:Your choice but you cannot control what I take as my business and respond to accordingly and no it is not a troll to do so if it is discussed in open forum it is fair game. If there is any trolling here it is your snarky remarks that constantly are posted.


Well I'll tell you what I told the creepy old troll recently. Fix it. Don't respond to my posts and get in the line of fire of those "snarky" remarks or there is always FOE. I can guarantee you I'd be fairly happy either way even if I would miss the comedy show.
*laughs*

Creepy old troll!

Love it! You keep digging your hole, Kait.
Let me give you some advice bastard. Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you.
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Re: All employers must offer Birth Control.

Postby ... » Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:47 pm

Drevan wrote:Keep your Atheistic Rhetoric bullshit out of this please. No one ever mentioned Gays not being allowed to be Parents thru adoption except you. Stay on topic


So that's the usual inane, pointless, cuss-laden non-comment from you out of the way. Did you have an actual counter to my point, or an argument to put forward, or a... well... anything of substance at all?

And please... in an argument that absolutely does have religious undertones (it's the whole basis behind the fact that this is even a debate in the first place) don't try to silence me because my beliefs may happen to differ from someone else's.

The comment was:

"And if the 'consider adoption' argument is being made by the religious..."

If it's not, or the reason for the comment is non-religious, then don't address it. Address the relevant bit. But don't get automatically pissy and throw a tantrum because someone dared to point out a blatantly hypocritical behaviour.

Since you are apparently incapable of separating out two different arguments, I'll make it easier for you:

"And 'consider adoption' might be more seriously considered when the approximate half-million children in care in the US already has decreased some."

Any counter point to this disagreement with your 'consider adoption' policy?
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Re: All employers must offer Birth Control.

Postby TreatRothschild » Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:49 pm

Drevan wrote:Keep your Atheistic Rhetoric bullshit out of this please. No one ever mentioned Gays not being allowed to be Parents thru adoption except you. Stay on topic
Not too sure what Atheism has to do with it, Drevan.
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Re: All employers must offer Birth Control.

Postby Mat » Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:52 pm

TreatRothschild wrote:
Drevan wrote:Keep your Atheistic Rhetoric bullshit out of this please. No one ever mentioned Gays not being allowed to be Parents thru adoption except you. Stay on topic
Not too sure what Atheism has to do with it, Drevan.

Yea I thought I had missed something so let it alone.
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Re: All employers must offer Birth Control.

Postby Drevan » Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:58 pm

Oor wrote:

And 'consider adoption' might be more seriously considered when the approximate half-million children in care in the US already has decreased some. And if the 'consider adoption' argument is being made by the religious - maybe they could try reconsidering their stance on permitting gay couples to adopt the neglected and abandoned children of heterosexual people, before they suggest that adoption is the way to go.



Oor made this attack statment against people who made believe in God and so I responded to her bullshit Try reading what people say before opening your mouths

Drevan wrote:
Keep your Atheistic Rhetoric bullshit out of this please. No one ever mentioned Gays not being allowed to be Parents thru adoption except you. Stay on topic
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Re: All employers must offer Birth Control.

Postby Mat » Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:02 pm

Drevan wrote:
Oor wrote:

And 'consider adoption' might be more seriously considered when the approximate half-million children in care in the US already has decreased some. And if the 'consider adoption' argument is being made by the religious - maybe they could try reconsidering their stance on permitting gay couples to adopt the neglected and abandoned children of heterosexual people, before they suggest that adoption is the way to go.



Oor made this attack statment against people who made believe in God and so I responded to her bullshit Try reading what people say before opening your mouths

Drevan wrote:
Keep your Atheistic Rhetoric bullshit out of this please. No one ever mentioned Gays not being allowed to be Parents thru adoption except you. Stay on topic

I am sorry I just dont see it as an attack on religion. Though there are many non religious organizations that handle adoptions. I could see a requirement to set through counseling about the different options before allowing an abortion but I could not see forcing someone to go to a religious organization for such counseling. An option sure but not a requirement.
There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him
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Re: All employers must offer Birth Control.

Postby ... » Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:03 pm

Drevan wrote:
Oor wrote:
And 'consider adoption' might be more seriously considered when the approximate half-million children in care in the US already has decreased some. And if the 'consider adoption' argument is being made by the religious - maybe they could try reconsidering their stance on permitting gay couples to adopt the neglected and abandoned children of heterosexual people, before they suggest that adoption is the way to go.


Oor made this attack statment against people who made believe in God and so I responded to her bullshit Try reading what people say before opening your mouths


I suggested that someone advocating adoption as a way of avoiding abortion, while simultaneously advocating for a reduction in the number of potential adoptions, might want to reconsider their stance.

Could you point out how this constitutes an attack?

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