Place your bets, please.

Who will be next year's US President?

Barak Obama
36
32%
Barak Obama
36
32%
Mitt Romney
4
4%
Mitt Romney
4
4%
Rick Santorum
0
No votes
Rick Santorum
0
No votes
Newt Gingrich
1
1%
Newt Gingrich
1
1%
Ron Paul
1
1%
Ron Paul
1
1%
Another Rep. candidate (after a brokered convention)
1
1%
Another Rep. candidate (after a brokered convention)
1
1%
Biden (because someone will pull a Lincoln on Obama)
0
No votes
Biden (because someone will pull a Lincoln on Obama)
0
No votes
No idea
4
4%
No idea
4
4%
There won't be one... Maya calender, remember?
2
2%
There won't be one... Maya calender, remember?
2
2%
Oh, shut up, Glaucon
7
6%
Oh, shut up, Glaucon
7
6%
 
Total votes: 112
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Sasi
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Re: Place your bets, please.

Postby Sasi » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:07 pm

Mat Vhargon wrote:
So you say though you contradict even yourself in the same post.


No, I didnt contradict myself.
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Glaucon
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Re: Place your bets, please.

Postby Glaucon » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:10 pm

@ Hawt: was just trying to explain the basic principles of lying. If you say you are doing it for reason A, and then that reason turns out not to be such a great reason, it is kind of odd to go claiming you did it for reason B, after the fact.

Wasn't it the Military that provided the intelligence to him? Same one Obama is using?


Not really. The collection of intelligence agencies that supply an administration with info pop out reports, assessments, threat-analyses all the time. It is a bit like 'the media', only it is 'secret' (mostly). Folks compete for access, money, leverage and attention. And if you go 'digging' around in the stuff offered, looking for something specific, you can find what you want to find.

Having read a bit about how it went down, it is pretty clear to me that for whatever reason, W's administration set it's sights on Iraq. And then they started browsing the various information offered by these agencies to 'build a case'. Or worse: they pretty much 'ordered' intelligence that would support an invasion directly. And being the boss, the organizations helped out (though they didn't come up with anything very convincing). It's politics. Leaders have been asking their servants/advisers to 'build cases' to legitimize what they wanted to do that way since before recorded history began. I can provide a long list, if you want. This was 'construct a casus belli' 101. Except... this one wasn't very strong. If it had not been for the USA making lots of promises (many financial, like promises made to countries like Turkey and Pakistan) and throwing their weight about, they would have found few allies beyond the UK.

You are probably right about nuking Mecca not being a great idea, though. :)

Thyri wrote:I love how the liberals take my comments as saying that only the lazy receive handouts. And then they play the bleeding heart violin for the disabled or the elderly. Those are NOT the only ones receiving handouts.


And I love how American republicans lump you into a large liberal conspiracy when you disagree with a point they were making, and accuse you of playing the violin.

I actually don't play the violin. Too hard.

I look across the street right now. I see section 8 housing (government subsidy housing, in my state the waiting list is so long for it that they're not accepting any more people). I see these people also driving new SUVs, new Lexus cars, I saw a BMW the other day. Is this right? You're too poor to pay for housing for yourself, but you can go out and get a new SUV.


Hmmm, well, maybe they have jobs? And maybe they just stay living in those houses because the rent is cheap because of the subsidy? Sometimes, just sometimes, humans ARE calculating individuals (the salt of the earth in neo-classical economic -greed is good- theory). This is a common issue relating to subsidized housing. Maybe they are drug-dealers, or whatever. Maybe US banks still give people with no job and no money loans for buying stuff they cannot afford. It seems to have little to do with unemployment benefits being too high. Or are those really so high that people on them can afford to buy expensive cars? That would be odd. Over where I live, people who end up on support without a job have to SELL their car, after a while, or lose that support.

But if it is as you imply... maybe you should become a bit more stingy when it comes to unemployment benefits. Like us 'socialist' Europeans. ;)

And another one:

What about the woman profiled in the news who received food stamps AFTER winning a multi million dollar lottery? What about the doctor and lawyer who paid for their waterfront mansions on the government's dime. Are these the infirmed and elderly scratching and clawing to make ends meet? Are they the ones the liberals play their violins for? Are they entitled to these government handouts?


Uhm... maybe that woman getting those stamps is just a result of a bureaucracy working the way bureaucracies work? They work with forms and paper and people typing stuff into computers. Bureaucracies aren't all-knowing omnipotent things. Mostly, they aren't all that efficient either. Was it supposed to keep tabs on who won the lottery? Should the bank have informed the government bureaucratic machine immediately? Do most people expect and even WANT the government bureaucracy to know everything? Not in the USA, I think (not people voting republican, generally, at least), because that would be nanny state government watching you.

And sorry... food stamps? Such a travesty of justice!

What about my family friend who had COPD (and yes this man was quite sick) who continued to work under the table to the tune of about 3000 dollars a month, while receiving another 2200 from the government in disability? Pretty cushy life when you can scam the government. But the liberals dont want crack downs on this. They want MORE money.


Well, since you called me one of those liberals, you must be mistaken. Because a welfare state MUST make sure it is not abused, if it is to retain public support and not break under mis-allocation of resources. Sure, I know many left-wing folks who don't see that. Those are idiots, I feel. But hey... I am the 'true liberal' here. Or maybe Festus is.

It may work in countried with lower populations. I'm sorry but this is the USA, some of our cities have higher populations than entire european countries. It will not work here.


Oh, please, not this BS argument again. :facepalm: First of all, most STATES in the USA are much smaller, population-wise, than most European countries. But more importantly, this whole 'scale' argument JUST DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE. 'Yeah, but America is BIGGER'? That isn't an argument. I see US GOP pundits sling this around a lot. And apparently, some folks in the US nod at it, for some reason. No clue why. It must sound like a smart thing to say, somehow. I could try to argue why it is nonsense, again, but I already did that in 3 other threads, so it won't do any good.

And also... uh... nevermind. I have to say, though... you play the 'bleeding heart violin' of the poor republican constantly prayed upon by cheating entitlement consumers protected by liberal socialist naive cynical foolish devious Obama yes-men pretty well. Hmmm... maybe it is more 'beating a drum', I admit. Because right wing ideology needs an element of 'anger' and 'resentment'.

I don't know... if all the stuff some of you republicans are saying is true, your left-wingers must be really stupid, compared to ours. :)

*runs of playing with the spiffing Hawt baseball hat.*
Mat
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Re: Place your bets, please.

Postby Mat » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:22 pm

Sasi wrote:
Mat Vhargon wrote:
So you say though you contradict even yourself in the same post.


No, I didnt contradict myself.

lol, ok whatever you say I will concede that the argument will go back and forth yes you did, no I did not, yes you did....
There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him
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Re: Place your bets, please.

Postby Thyri » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:16 pm

Unfortunately Glaucon in your zeal to protect peoples' rights to not work and yet collect a government entitled paycheck, you attack the person and not the arguement.

Sure those people in section 8 housing have jobs. Oh wait, Section 8 housing is not available to people with jobs. You have to be actually poor. Too poor to pay rent on a house. Housing assistance at least here is one of the last things they'll give you. Too poor to pay rent on a house, but wealthy enough to purchase new cars. I dont think so.

The millionaire on food stamps. You think this is a joke? This is part of the liberal propoganda. You laugh when a travesty like this happens. And do you think this is the only person scamming the government out of my taxpayer money? And you want to tax the wealthy even more so that they can pay for this woman's food stamps?

Then the bleeding hearts will cry for more unions. Oh yes please. We had a GM plant here in the Baltimore area. Janitors in the 1980's were getting paid 32 dollars an hour and wanted MORE. Unskilled labor. In the 80's 32 bucks an hour thanks to the unions. I could cite more recent examples of union workers getting preferential treatment over "normal" workers, even normal workers being denied employment thanks to the unions who consistantly strive for overpaid workers which is one reason companies are outsourcing their labor overseas. its too expensive to have 32 dollar an hour janitors. Much easier to have cheap chinese labor. We wouldnt be in this economic situation if the unions werent involved.

But yes, please blame the evil republicans for keepin the little man down. Keep taxing us into oblivion. Keep those unions. I'm ashamed to live in a country that thinks that its good to pay people who do not work, and those who do minimal work should get paid like kings.

Democrats.... greed at its finest.
Be very polite. -Flagg RIP 2009
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Festus
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Re: Place your bets, please.

Postby Festus » Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:16 pm

Thyri wrote:Unfortunately Glaucon in your zeal to protect peoples' rights to not work and yet collect a government entitled paycheck, you attack the person and not the arguement.

Sure those people in section 8 housing have jobs. Oh wait, Section 8 housing is not available to people with jobs. You have to be actually poor. Too poor to pay rent on a house. Housing assistance at least here is one of the last things they'll give you. Too poor to pay rent on a house, but wealthy enough to purchase new cars. I dont think so.

The millionaire on food stamps. You think this is a joke? This is part of the liberal propoganda. You laugh when a travesty like this happens. And do you think this is the only person scamming the government out of my taxpayer money? And you want to tax the wealthy even more so that they can pay for this woman's food stamps?

Then the bleeding hearts will cry for more unions. Oh yes please. We had a GM plant here in the Baltimore area. Janitors in the 1980's were getting paid 32 dollars an hour and wanted MORE. Unskilled labor. In the 80's 32 bucks an hour thanks to the unions. I could cite more recent examples of union workers getting preferential treatment over "normal" workers, even normal workers being denied employment thanks to the unions who consistantly strive for overpaid workers which is one reason companies are outsourcing their labor overseas. its too expensive to have 32 dollar an hour janitors. Much easier to have cheap chinese labor. We wouldnt be in this economic situation if the unions werent involved.

But yes, please blame the evil republicans for keepin the little man down. Keep taxing us into oblivion. Keep those unions. I'm ashamed to live in a country that thinks that its good to pay people who do not work, and those who do minimal work should get paid like kings.

Democrats.... greed at its finest.


Wow, you parrot Fox News quite well.

You take the extreme examples of cheating the system and want to condemn everyone getting assistance.

How do you feel about Wall Street and big banking? Do you feel we should also do away with them, or at least regulate them because they cheat and steal and drive the whole world economy into the toilet? Your tax dollars go to bail them out, give them huge tax breaks, etc. I don't hear you complaining about them, and they get much, much more by cheating than the people who live next door to you.
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Glaucon
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Re: Place your bets, please.

Postby Glaucon » Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:17 am

Thyri wrote:Unfortunately Glaucon in your zeal to protect peoples' rights to not work and yet collect a government entitled paycheck, you attack the person and not the arguement.


I didn't attack you at all in my first reaction, and then you brought up liberals and bleeding heart violins. And then I 'hit' you back by pointing to your violin playing and drum beating. But feel free to report my previous post, if you feel 'attacked'.

Also, I stated clearly what my position on fraud is:

Glaucon wrote:Because a welfare state MUST make sure it is not abused, if it is to retain public support and not break under mis-allocation of resources. Sure, I know many left-wing folks who don't see that. Those are idiots, I feel.


Reading is an art not everyone has mastered, clearly.

Sure those people in section 8 housing have jobs. Oh wait, Section 8 housing is not available to people with jobs. You have to be actually poor. Too poor to pay rent on a house. Housing assistance at least here is one of the last things they'll give you. Too poor to pay rent on a house, but wealthy enough to purchase new cars. I dont think so.


I don't know the specific rules relating to section 8 housing. I was talking about subsidized housing in general (since I am not American). If what you say is true, then these people are probably working while collecting unemployment benefits. Working in unofficial jobs not paying taxes either, most likely. That is not a good thing, I feel. There are ways to combat such fraud and tax-evasion. A government needs to combat such fraud and untaxed unofficial labor (whether or not it gives government hand-outs).

The millionaire on food stamps. You think this is a joke?This is part of the liberal propoganda. You laugh when a travesty like this happens.


You have GOT to be kidding me, Thyri. It sounds like a rather remarkable case. People don't win the lottery every day. The 'problem' of people winning the lottery without their 'benefits' being stopped is going to be a pretty LOW VOLUME one. And in this particular case, it sounds like it is the media making an issue out of nothing (I don't know the case directly). I am sure that that woman winning that lottery was SUPPOSED (and legally obliged) to inform this or that organization of no longer needing the food-stamps (report her lottery 'income'). As I said before, it is not REASONABLE to assume that a bureaucratic organization can keep tabs on things like people winning lotteries.

I looked it up. And hey... it seems that after a while, the government bureaucracy DID find out. It is how you found out about it: the federal government raiding her home and releasing the story to the press. The woman said this: "I thought that they would cut me off, but since they didn't, I thought maybe it was OK because I'm not working." Apparently, she was like you, believing government organizations have magical powers of knowing everything that goes on. (They did find out, here, but clearly not right away... which is hardly surprising). Not very bright. And I am pretty sure she broke the rules (people are supposed to report income in cases like this, I am fairly sure). She wasn't thrown in jail, it seems. Most likely because they felt her not reporting it was stupidity rather than a criminal act (the story doesn't say if she had to pay money back to the government, but most likely, she did or will be forced to soon).

So, sounds like the usual Fox News drum beating of the government giving hand-outs to people that do not need it, while in reality, this is a case of the government taking action against someone that was taking those hand-outs while not needing them.

And do you think this is the only person scamming the government out of my taxpayer money?


Not sure this was a 'scam', exactly. A scam suggests a plan. This sounds more like stupidity (and maybe greed). It certainly isn't some 'scam'.

But sure... there ARE people scamming the government (in any country). It is a problem. People don't always play nice. Governments need to fight it. A good law-maker/policy maker has to think about how likely it is that people will abuse a particular rule/law/system and include measures to try and minimize that. And the more 'hand-outs' and subsidies and whatnot around, the more likely that there will be abuse. But even if a country has NO WELFARE, no hand-outs to the 'needy' at all, people will be 'scamming' the government. There are countries (especially in the third world) with hardly any aid from the government given to the populace. Yet, typically, in those countries, the government loses lots and lost of money to fraud and corruption.

And you want to tax the wealthy even more so that they can pay for this woman's food stamps?


Uhm. Let me think on this one. What is the correct answer, I wonder? Yes? Or no? :o.O:

Then the bleeding hearts will cry for more unions. [usual Fox News-Murdoch drum beating about unions] bla bla


Uhm... seems unrelated to women winning lotteries and still collecting food-stamps, that.

We wouldnt be in this economic situation if the unions werent involved.


Ah, yes... the banking crises all started with the unions, I agree. :mrgreen:

Fact is: even if you didn't have unions, the cost of labor in the USA would have risen over the last decades. It is what usually happens during times of economic growth. Happened in Japan, even though unions there are quite weak.

But yes, please blame the evil republicans for keepin the little man down. Keep taxing us into oblivion. Keep those unions. I'm ashamed to live in a country that thinks that its good to pay people who do not work, and those who do minimal work should get paid like kings.


Migrate to Somalia, maybe?

Democrats.... greed at its finest.


Yes. I bet you Michelle Obama is secretly collecting food-stamps too. Or printing them, even!
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Pelopidas
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Re: Place your bets, please.

Postby Pelopidas » Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:56 am

The unions? THE UNIONS?

Dear Lord give me strength to bare this nonsense.

Yeah, there are people who are gaming the system, everywhere, but how important is the problem overall? You cant have the perfect social security system where NOBODY steals something or finds some loophole to take advantage of this or that benefit, but there's a difference between a system that's broken, where these incidents are the norm and a system where these cases are the small minority of exceptions that happens pretty much everywhere.

So instead of picking up bits and pieces of cases that seem to confirm your already established bias Thyri, you better look at the larger picture before you spread nonsense. How do we do this? Statistics. Good statistics.

Yeah, because countries like the USA are a prime example of how unions were broken to pieces in the last three decades. How many members did they have back in the 70s and how many today? And besides membership, how many people are actually being involved in them? Careful with your answer, i do have the numbers.

Unions are relatively strong in countries like France, or Greece, which doesnt mean that's a problem but thats another discussion altogether, unions are no problem for the USA.

But hey, let's blame the Unions!
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Re: Place your bets, please.

Postby Mat » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:05 am

Pelopidas wrote:The unions? THE UNIONS?

Dear Lord give me strength to bare this nonsense.

Yeah, there are people who are gaming the system, everywhere, but how important is the problem overall? You cant have the perfect social security system where NOBODY steals something or finds some loophole to take advantage of this or that benefit, but there's a difference between a system that's broken, where these incidents are the norm and a system where these cases are the small minority of exceptions that happens pretty much everywhere.

So instead of picking up bits and pieces of cases that seem to confirm your already established bias Thyri, you better look at the larger picture before you spread nonsense. How do we do this? Statistics. Good statistics.

Yeah, because countries like the USA are a prime example of how unions were broken to pieces in the last three decades. How many members did they have back in the 70s and how many today? And besides membership, how many people are actually being involved in them? Careful with your answer, i do have the numbers.

Unions are relatively strong in countries like France, or Greece, which doesnt mean that's a problem but thats another discussion altogether, unions are no problem for the USA.

But hey, let's blame the Unions!

Drawing conclusions that are not supported by your statistics are you? The stat that unions are weaker than they used to be by no means supports the argument that unions are no problem anymore.
There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him
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Re: Place your bets, please.

Postby Mat » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:13 am

Kaitlin wrote:
Mat Vhargon wrote:Drawing conclusions that are not supported by your statistics are you? The stat that unions are weaker than they used to be by no means supports the argument that unions are no problem anymore.


Whenever I watch these exchanges I just wonder were is the importance of painting a true picture. Private sector unions are at levels in the US equivalent to the 1930's. They aren't a problem.

The defense and auto industries are the only two places you will find a persistent presence and even they have figured out how to slowly but surely get the best out of collective bargaining agreements that will cause those levels to continue to fall.

Yes I wonder the same thing when seeing your arguments as truth and accuracy seem to be of little use to you.
There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him
Mat
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Re: Place your bets, please.

Postby Mat » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:21 am

Kaitlin wrote:You may disagree with me but please don't distort my opinions and statements. They are always backed up with well documented statistics. Why don't you supply your own? I think in this case you know you are full of hot air...nothing new.
Just out of curiosity where are these stats that you say you have posted in support of your position that unions are not a problem anymore perhaps I have missed them or perhaps this is just another example of you not being truthful.
There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him

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