Project Sansar

Tantus
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Re: Project Sansar

Postby Tantus » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:59 am

The VR compatibility is their way of marketing Sansar, it's free technical-hype. Eventually Sansar will replace SL, without any need for headsets. They're aiming for a public opening in the first half of this year, which probably means June-July.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8IIK-C5xYM

Watching 360 videos in the 'Video Dome' should be a better experience all round, than playing them on youtube and using your mouse to drag the screen around (In the absence of a VR headset!)


Play this and pan around:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlOiXMvMaZo


Here's another Sansar video, there's a view of the interface at the end with snapshots of other Experiences.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tROCcUhcDJA
HorizonNinetails
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Re: Project Sansar

Postby HorizonNinetails » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:30 pm

I'm not a huge content creator, but I have to say - they're trying to build this thing on the backs of content creators.

The idea to lower tier is great! Until they start talking about turning the sales of products over into their revenue stream.

So if you were renting a sim and had a base expense, you knew what that was. If you made more than that you were banking profit. The same scales down to a parcel. I rent a parcel for about 2k a month or so. When I make more than that, my parcel is covered and I'm perfectly content.

Bigger scale. You pay for a sim, for cheaper, but now you get gouged on every transaction. Instead of getting 1k for your widget, now you only get 700L. That doesn't seem like much, but if you're selling 1000 widgets it turns into a substantial amount.

Basically...they're lowering rent, but turning up sales tax.

It will be interesting to see what the market can suffer and where they put their price points.

As for the VR...its a gimmick. There are people who would love it...but RPers normally are perhaps some of the more modern/updated looking avis. Most of the people in SL are stuck in 2010. Its like trying to sell VR so you can look at people's help island avis.

I got back into making animations recently and I'm trying to understand this bento stuff...getting into blender and all that...but from what I see, content creators will likely give it a shot. Try it. And then if the money isn't there they will just revert back to putting their effort into SL. If its all translatable...and all they have to do is port, then maybe you'll get more vendors involved. Even if its just to have a kick at the cat.
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Glaucon
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Re: Project Sansar

Postby Glaucon » Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:11 pm

Yes, it IS a sales tax. But I am not sure what is wrong with that. RL proves that there being a sales tax (or value added tax for UK people) doesn't stop people from offering good on the markets where that tax is collected, or others from buying those goods.

Sure, having to pay part of what you sell as tax (or really, to cover the cost and profit margins of LL) might not be great for creators. Would be nicer if you could keep it all. But it is better to sell 200 items for 1000 lindens and to only end up with 140K lindens than to sell 100 and keep 100K, if you spend the same time creating that item.

SL is free to play. Buying some stuff costs some, but not necessarily a whole lot. Renting/buying land (a parcel, and especially a sim) is quite expensive, relatively. Prohibitively expensive, for most people, when it comes to sims. And sims matter a great deal, in terms of what SL has to offer to it's (potential) users.

People new to SL often make the mistake of wanting to buy things. Cars, planes, houses, furniture. Or they start to create stuff for themselves. But slowly, they discover that all that nice stuff they bought or created is going to be useless to them, just sitting in their inventory, because they have no place to put it, because it is far cheaper to buy a prim than to have one rezzed. Because land (and thus, LI/prims) is the real bottleneck.

In my mind, it is beyond any doubt that the fact that SL had a business model relying so heavily on income from virtual land has hurt it's growth in terms of users, especially after the 2006 and 2007 spikes, when it was 'the next thing' for a while. There are very nice sims out there, but there would have been a lot more nice places out there (for longer) if tier and purchase prices had not been as high as they were (and still are). More non-commercial places, certainly. More sims, more people creating their little worlds, etc. probably means more users having more stuff to do, things to see, explore, etc. And more things to rez means more goods sold as well to those owning land, most likely.

I really doubt that the user-base would have been seriously harmed had the MP sales-tax been higher (of course, that isn't the only sales tax already in effect, as there is the 'cost' to selling lindens as opposed to buying them too). And the loss by creators (more 'toll' paid to LL or less bought because of higher prices) would have been compensated for by having more users to sell stuff too, I believe. More than, I suspect.

So, in my view, it makes perfect sense to decrease land costs for a new platform, and to raise the profit made from user-to-user sales instead. If they make land prices low enough for any single enthusiastic person with a mid-level income in the 'first world' to be able to have a fair shot at being able to afford owning a sim without making great financial sacrifices, it would enable a whole lot more people to build their own virtual dream place. And, potentially, that can lead to a much larger market for creators, which, I think, will cause creating stuff to be more rewarding, financially, in the long run.

So, makes sense to me. Will it work out? No idea. Depends on many things, such as Sansar actually being any good.
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Re: Project Sansar

Postby HorizonNinetails » Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:43 pm

To explain myself : I agree with you Glau. -If- you have the market there.

If they shifted SL to this gradually, I think it would work. I actually wouldn't mind it. I can't understand why tier is so expensive for virtual land.

I think it is fair to assume that Sansar will be greatly depending on cannibalizing their current content creators already on SL and are familiar with their product.

I think the problem comes when you have a fraction of the player base and then ask the same content creators to go and make content so they can be taxed more. Unless you can port everything directly making content that is simultaneously applicable in SL and Sansar, then I can see that being a major wall for people adopting it.

It will depend on price points. Marketplace already takes a skim...but if the skim suddenly becomes 30%-40%-50% and you have hardly anyone available to actually buy it...yea....flopasaurus.
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Glaucon
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Re: Project Sansar

Postby Glaucon » Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:18 pm

I agree if it is percentages like 30% to 50%. Also because the kind of content-creators needed for advanced mesh building (which obviously is more reliant on expert knowledge than making the layered system clothing that once was the standard within SL) often have their own standards for selling stuff they build elsewhere, even hobbyist builders. Percentages like that would seriously offend a lot of them.

Sansar isn't born in the same environment that SL was, in the early years at the start of the century, when everything could be sticks and blocks and still be exciting to a lot of people. We have higher standards, now. We have to see it could be like the Witcher and GTA V. To even get people now playing SL to start using the new platform, it is necessary that Sansar offers things of a similar or higher level than SL does, currently, right from the get-go, almost. People take their mesh avi's and AO's and sex beds etc. for granted, now. If they need to get that stuff again, but they get some cool new stuff as well, they probably will. If those things COULD theoretically also be around in Sansar (maybe even better), but they are just not there yet, because content creators haven't made them for it, yet, I bet many SL players will quickly turn their heels, log out and get back to SL. And of course, they will want MORE than just SL players to flock to Sansar. So the bar is pretty high.

I am a bit worried that, somehow, they think they are still in 2002. That they can just do the same thing again. They'd be wrong, I fear. I get that SL grew to be what it was not because of what Linden Labs made, but because of the freedom it gave it's users to make stuff. But they can't just offer 'potential' only and expect creators to make everything from scratch after they open the doors to the new playground. Because there IS another playground already. It has to be pretty, interesting, cool, from the start, so users will come. Without users, many content creators are not going to be all that excited to start making stuff for Sansar. So, Linden Labs really NEEDS to real those creators in beforehand with the promise of new options AND new users.

So, yeah. Kicking them in the nuts with a sales-tax of 30% or more would be really counter-productive. Then again, if you look at the amount of stuff sold on SL, they could make that percentage far smaller, far more reasonable, and still make more than they make on land in the SL business model (given the same amount of users). Would also help if the sales-tax was more transparent than it is in SL (with that whole selling/buying lindens difference stuff, say), that it was a fixed percentage so that if person A paid 10 dollars in virtual money on day X, the other would be sure to get, say, 9 dollars if he cashed the virtual money in for dollars right away (if it was, say, 10% in tax). Would make it more transparent, certainly.

I don't think it will be a flopasaurus because of that. I haven't heard them name percentages like that. I am more worried about whether Sansar will be 'user-ready' enough when it opens up (as you said, no users, no market, and thus few creators), and about how they market it, show of it's potential. I did quite like the elephant vid above, but most of what I have seen, demo-wise, has been somewhat underwhelming. I mean... they walk around with avatars in those vids? I get that Linden Labs has always been careful in using the products of content creators in their vids and demo's, for obvious reasons, but... really. Why don't they get the guy from Vista to at least make them some half-decent animations for walking, so those avatars don't look like idiots doing a dork-walk, for God's sake!

I often feel that the folks at Linden Labs only ever half-understood their product.
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Re: Project Sansar

Postby HorizonNinetails » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:57 pm

SL is terrible for providing support.

Take a look at their link to animation content creation. Half of the links are broken.

SL should be providing ways to rig to the SL skeleton, and instead you have other people providing that.

I dunno. I just find the jump from layers/prims/sculpties up to mesh has made it so we've lost a LOT of content creators. The ratio has drastically gone down for new content creation for me.
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Re: Project Sansar

Postby Danika Stenvaag » Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:47 pm

I like goats.

I like elephants too! I liked the "Surrounded by Wild Elephants" vid and watched it in 4K while panning around. Cool feature allowing user interactive abilities. There's a great future for VR but right now there's a lot more work that needs to be done on it. Way, way more work. People's expectations are much higher than the Mario Bros. era it's still in. And it's going to take a lot of marketing skill and PR to convince people to currently spend a few thousand dollars on computer hardware and another $800 plus dollars for a bulky scuba diving helmet to awkwardly wear on their head while they flail around the room like a crazy person knocking the lamp over and scaring the sheet out of the cat hiding under the bed. Of course, costs will come down and there's a bit of competition between higher and lower end, more economical solutions. But there's lots to fix in the meantime. They still have to fix the depth of field vision issues because the eyes and brain aren't communicating properly and naturally. You'll end up with some people sea sick and hurling after five or ten minutes like a scene out of The Exorcist.

No hard feelings Ebbe and in the nicest of ways, I wish you much success. Beyond all the hype, I'm sure you're aware by now there's lots and lots of competition out there for what's still a niche product. And you need a smart business model because the one used before could have been better. Need to treat your users and content creators more kindly and with respect and keep costs down for everyone. Pay close attention to what they want, what the market demands. Because if you don't, your users (what users do show up for the grand opening) will jump ship. You've lost a lot of enterprise customers too, small business and big corporations, because your enterprise model was too expensive and unwieldy. Lost an ah-mazing opportunity there. Anyhoo, best wishes to you.

But further into the future, when the technology catches up with expectations, I can see VR integrated into social media and used for fun, new experiences, shopping, business, learning, research... Imagine using historical info for recreating a virtual ancient Rome or Viking village to explore like you're time traveling. Or walking on the moon and the planets. Lots, lots of potential. But we aren't there yet.

I like goats.

I like elephants too!
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Sasi
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Re: Project Sansar

Postby Sasi » Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:31 am

Looks like Sansar doesn't have a lot of potential for the RP community (at least Gor and all those which have a part of adult content in their lore...):

http://slnewser.blogspot.ca/2017/06/new ... -wont.html
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Re: Project Sansar

Postby Leah » Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:57 am

Sasi wrote:Looks like Sansar doesn't have a lot of potential for the RP community (at least Gor and all those which have a part of adult content in their lore...):

http://slnewser.blogspot.ca/2017/06/new ... -wont.html


That quote from the beta tester has basically convinced me that Sansar isn't worth my time.
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Glaucon
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Re: Project Sansar

Postby Glaucon » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:19 pm

From what I have been hearing and seeing of Sansar, I have to say by now: meh.

Regardless of them not allowing adult content, not creating connecting islands/sims etc., all what I have seen & read (which hasn't been much that did impress) has been people walking around 3D landscapes. Nothing very interactive. Nothing fun.

Can't really see much coming of it, given the general lack of professionalism the presentation of their project manages to convey. I guess that the people that made SL have largely left LL to begin with. And maybe they got lucky to begin with, happening to attract enough creative people with enough ideas to make SL interesting. It might well be that the current people in charge at LL are largely clueless.

Shame.

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