Project Sansar

Lucius
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Re: Project Sansar

Postby Lucius » Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:10 pm

The quality of performance of SL has a lot more to do with the ancient physics engine than it does with how it is coded. If it were poorly coded there would be no way for it to do about 90% of the things that it does and I think it would behoove everyone to remember that SL is a pioneering application. Nobody else has done or is doing what they have done with any degree of success.
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Re: Project Sansar

Postby Garian » Sat Nov 21, 2015 4:56 am

I'm sure Sansar will be great. I'll embrace the immersion potentials. However, I think one interview suggested it may utilize instancing. That could effect RP mechanics.
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Vector
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Re: Project Sansar

Postby Vector » Sat Nov 28, 2015 2:42 am

I can just see an infinite amount of sims having to be created in order for everyone to kill that one monster and be the hero! Where's Tarl when you need him?

Wouldn't have happened in my day!

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Elle Couerblanc
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Re: Project Sansar

Postby Elle Couerblanc » Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:26 pm

Lucius wrote:The quality of performance of SL has a lot more to do with the ancient physics engine than it does with how it is coded. If it were poorly coded there would be no way for it to do about 90% of the things that it does and I think it would behoove everyone to remember that SL is a pioneering application. Nobody else has done or is doing what they have done with any degree of success.


Havok isn't ancient. My guess is they are choosing to not update it. ESO uses Havok - what version though I am not sure. I think SL's is Havok 4??

My understanding is the need to change is more to do with the avatar base plus some other back end coding besides the physics engine things that will allow them to create mini MMOs. Of course is also the whole VR thing *rolls eyes*. I get sick enough on some MMO mounts that will deter me from ever wanting to do VR. LOL.
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Re: Project Sansar

Postby Vivienne Daguerre » Fri Dec 04, 2015 10:32 am

I am excited about Project Sansar, and have been thinking about how Gor might be different there. Regions will be much much larger. Perhaps we might have a Gorean world where several cities can co-exist on the same region. There will no doubt be a few... one for BTB, one for GE, one for Lifestylers, and probably more created by people who want to "rule the planet" and compete with each other to attract Goreans.

Gor has developed to the point where we share common raid rules, differing in small details, such as how many emotes to bind, etc. I think that puts Gor in a good position to take advantage of Sansar's larger regions, sharing space together.

Instancing could be a problem, and not just for Gor. For example, instancing would not work for live music or performances if you were not in the same instance as the performers. What would be nice is if we have the power to permit instancing in certain areas. For example, if you set up a quest to get weapons or clothing, it would not matter if the quest area was instanced. I would be ok with instancing if we were given control over whether to instance, not to instance, or partially instance.

The future is coming. Someone is going to make a new product to compete with Second Life, and I agree with Ebbe that it would be better to have Linden Lab do it than someone else. They have the experience and have some idea about what we want.
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Re: Project Sansar

Postby Tantus » Mon Dec 28, 2015 1:40 pm

Lucius wrote:The quality of performance of SL has a lot more to do with the ancient physics engine than it does with how it is coded. If it were poorly coded there would be no way for it to do about 90% of the things that it does and I think it would behoove everyone to remember that SL is a pioneering application. Nobody else has done or is doing what they have done with any degree of success.


The physics engine works on the server side, it doesn't necessarily impact your FPS at home.

The SL viewer/client was conceived over a decade ago, it's been through some changes, but doesn't make use of the GPU as well as it could. There have been numerous threads on the topic over at SL's forums.
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Re: Project Sansar

Postby Tantus » Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:04 pm

The transcript for Lab Chat #2 is out (+link to Lab Chat #1).

Going by the Lab Chats for Nov and Jan, the important difference from SL will be:
SL's builds are limited by the tier, land space and prims(or LI).
SL's sims are laying on one grid and you can cross between them.

- Project Sansar will not have 'sims', they're calling them an 'experience'.
- Experiences aren't on a grid, there're no border crossings and no 'world map'.
- The same L$ currency will be used in PS.
- One account will have multiple 'personas' with a shared inventory. (Sounds unnecessary, unless avatars will have a unique name, friends and group list too)
- You can reserve your SL account name, for PS.
- Avatar limitations are removed by increasing levels of account verification (That fiasco again.)
- Experiences can force visitors into local avatars(i.e. a fish avatar in an ocean sim)
- Experiences can limit your inventory view to what's locally relevant (or so Ebbe suggests in session #2)
- Each experience will come with an associated webpage (limited, promotional content)
- C# will be the language of choice, with possibilities for others in the future.
- All objects(Mesh) will be imported into PS, the ingame creations tools will arrive after launch.
- Marketplace sales will be taxed by LL as a main source of revenue.
- VR will be compatible with HTC/Valve's Vive and Sony's Morpheus too, but no immediate plans for OSVR.
- No immediate VR support for Macs
- No client at all for Linux!

Some extracts from the talks:

► Show Spoiler


From these vague articles, I'm going to assume PS will have different limitations to SL. Earlier on, Ebbe suggested the experiences will have almost unlimited space. But last week it was reduced to a very modest 4km x 4km. It's huge compared to an SL sim, but very modest by modern gaming terms, at least 16km x 16km would have been acceptable.

As it stands, you can fit about 16 sims across a 4km stretch. Like this map shows, the black hearted square is one complete sim and the red boundary is the estimated size of an experience.

► Show Spoiler


An SL sim looks tiny in comparison so you might ask the need for anything larger! Because you have the freedom to build and publish complete games through PS, to an active audience. But to build anything on the scale of an MMO, will require you to purchase additional 'experience' and link them together. It's possibly why LL have reduced the space on offer from their earlier estimates of 'near unlimited'.

In brief, I think an experience will become profitable by allowing you to charge subscriptions to players. Or, you create the experience and lease out space to other builders. In an RP environment, the experience owner sets the rules and creates the central zone. Then groups of players rent large parcels of lands to build their space. And you potentially have 256 sims worth of space to lease out.

But, that's still limited to ~150 players per instance, and there's been no word on prim limits.
So this is where PS's limitations come in. Maybe to scale up your experience you'll need to buy additional prims from LL and pass on the cost. And maybe every experience will have a free instance, but those who become popular enough will need to buy additional instancing for their experiences too. I'm seriously speculating here, and I doubt the space of 256 sims will equal to 3,840,000 LI by default!



An intro to PS at 17:50 mins in, with the first glimpse of avatars and clothing.



Ebbe also appeared in these talks, but I haven't watched them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzQs-G7CCkQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsmZP39PupI
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Darius of Turia
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Re: Project Sansar

Postby Darius of Turia » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:18 pm

Tantus wrote:VR will push LL to optimise the graphics. It needs to run smoothly for VR to be an option and if they can manage that, everyone will benefit (The sims will be running at 90FPS too, for the sake of VR).

A lot of 'residents' are leaving SL because it won't run well on their PCs, not as it used to. It's not a graphically demanding application, it's just coded poorly. So if SL2 begins with an optimised viewer and smoother experience all round, it will be a real incentive for people to switch over.



Let's be fair, alot of those residents need to upgrade their computers from 1998. You said it doesn't run smoothly 'any more' which means its an issue with the graphics load not the coding. I have spoken to alot of people in the past about their computer issues and find half of them haven't had their computer upgraded in years. "Well I can use my browser and YouTube just fine!" Congrats, so can my cell phone.
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Re: Project Sansar

Postby Anarch » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:27 pm

SL is a very heavy and unoptimized program though, but that is unavoidable in any program that tries to be a sandbox platform with a wide variety of user generated content (models, textures, audio, scripts, etc.) If everything was pre-rendered (and thus no user generated content) it would be able to run much smoother on even the oldest machines.
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Re: Project Sansar

Postby Darius of Turia » Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:04 pm

Exactly, we are bad builders. You go and play a game like assassins creed. You have all these buildings all over the place. Most of them are hollow. You see all these people. There are like 10 models repeated all over the place and most of them are just one overlayed texture. We have a massive load around the avatars with items being 200 textures to load in a freaking bracelet. Only the fastest and most well made machines will run SL with out graphical lag.
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