Now the Economy in F---- Trouble

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Glaucon
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Re: Now the Economy in F---- Trouble

Postby Glaucon » Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:08 pm

Mat wrote:your reasoning is flawed. Sure if were to look at life expectancy you could rank and stack according to that and it would make sense to go by averages. However to draw a conclusion about the quality of the health care based on that data you could not draw meaningful conclusions like you would like because you are including people who are not participating in health care really.


See my answer above. I'll quote part of it for you:

But hey... it makes no sense to me, but....if you were to look at 'insured people only' (so leaving out the non-insured part) and compare THOSE to countries around the world (where everyone is insured, so what you might call an 'unfair comparisson), the US health care system would do better, relatively, sure. But it would STILL NOT BE THE BEST.

The claim that the USA has the best health care system in the world remains a flat-out political lie.

(And oh, if you were to do what I don't think you should do... compare the 'insured' part of the US with, say, everyone in the UK... that other little problem of the US system would stand out even more starkly: the fact that it is WAY MORE EXPENSIVE. The most cost-inefficient system in the world.


I don't get how someone can rate a system that offers poor care to many people (those without insurance, those with little insurance), offers only average care to the larger part of the population (those with normal insurance) and offers all that at a costs that is way, way higher for less than any other country in the world the 'best system' in any way. Even if it has 'redeeming' quality of being able to offer some of the best treatments in the world for particular conditions (cancer-related, mostly). Because that is true for other countries as well. Some of the best hospitals? Sure. The best 'system'? That is a joke.
Last edited by Glaucon on Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mat
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Re: Now the Economy in F---- Trouble

Postby Mat » Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:12 pm

read it still think it is flawed because best is subjective based on what criteria you believe is important.
There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him
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Glaucon
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Re: Now the Economy in F---- Trouble

Postby Glaucon » Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:22 pm

Mat wrote:read it still think it is flawed because best is subjective based on what criteria you believe is important.


Got a better criterium? Bedside Champagne? Can you explain how these guys got it all wrong?

http://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf

Or is your 'you are wrong because your criteria are subjective!' just you stubbornly refusing to acknowledge facts?

Or let me put it differently... Can you actually make a CASE for saying that the USA health care system is the best in the world?
Mat
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Re: Now the Economy in F---- Trouble

Postby Mat » Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:26 pm

Glaucon wrote:
Mat wrote:read it still think it is flawed because best is subjective based on what criteria you believe is important.


Got a better criterium? Bedside Champagne? Can you explain how these guys got it all wrong?

http://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf

Or is your 'you are wrong because your criteria are subjective!' just you stubbornly refusing to acknowledge facts?

Have no problem with facts, just have a problem with conclusions being drawn that are not supported by those facts.
There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him
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Glaucon
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Re: Now the Economy in F---- Trouble

Postby Glaucon » Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:27 pm

Glaucon wrote:Or let me put it differently... Can you actually make a CASE for saying that the USA health care system is the best in the world?
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Re: Now the Economy in F---- Trouble

Postby Mat » Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:30 pm

Glaucon wrote:
Glaucon wrote:Or let me put it differently... Can you actually make a CASE for saying that the USA health care system is the best in the world?

Never said that it was the best, I have said that it is subjective based on what you feel is important.
There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him
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Glaucon
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Re: Now the Economy in F---- Trouble

Postby Glaucon » Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:43 pm

Mat wrote:
Glaucon wrote:
Glaucon wrote:Or let me put it differently... Can you actually make a CASE for saying that the USA health care system is the best in the world?

Never said that it was the best, I have said that it is subjective based on what you feel is important.


Every claim containing words like 'good' or 'best' refers to values, which are generally taken to be subjective.

I just figure that people dying at a high-age, low child mortality, people reporting being happy with the care they got, stuff being cost-efficient, etc. relate to fairly intersubjective, shared values. Something we should all be able to agree on. Then again, I guess that a satanists that loves to see people die young and suffer and loves waste for it's own good, he or she would not share those values, for example. So, sure... it is subjective. :facepalm:
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Re: Now the Economy in F---- Trouble

Postby Mat » Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:38 am

Nope it is just that those measures are not measuring the health care given if they include people who are not really receiving health care some by their choice and others not by their choice. As for life expectancy I am more and more falling out of favor with that even being used. Who cares how long someone lives if the quality of that life is not acceptable. Sure a person can be kept alive for a very long time but is that what they want if they really had a choice.
There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him
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Glaucon
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Re: Now the Economy in F---- Trouble

Postby Glaucon » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:41 pm

Oh, Mat, Mat, Mat.

The red herring works wonders, doesn't it?

Sure, letting people live longer regardless of the quality of life may be silly. Doctors are generally aware of this. In Europe, as well as in the US. (I'd say that, perhaps, they are a little MORE aware of this in Europe than in the US - see the way euthanasia is talked about there). There is, however, no indication that people in the US may live less long, but that they enjoy a better quality of life due to different care. So, this is NOT a good reason to dismiss life expectancy as a way to compare health care systems.

But again: what do YOU consider good criterea for comparing the performance of health care systems?

Oh, wait. You have no opinion. You merely seek to cast doubt on the data that shows the US system wasn't doing very well, so you have a reason to ignore the evidence, like a good little laywer. Very much the GOP... years and years of oposition to Obamacare. Without ever getting serious about proposing an alternative.

It is like arguing with a professional creationist. Those are pretty good at finding some weakness in reigning evolutionary theories (until that area is strengthened, after which they move onto the next weak spot), but when you ask them to supply scientific evidence for their alternative theory, they dodge. And yet, they call what they do science.
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Re: Now the Economy in F---- Trouble

Postby Mat » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:49 pm

there you go thinking I am attempting to debate vs just giving my opinion. I know everything must be confrontational to you so enjoy.
There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him

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