Slaves and Gor RP sims

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Sasi
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Slaves and Gor RP sims

Postby Sasi » Wed Nov 19, 2014 2:39 am

Quoting Harlequin who has reacted to my comment regarding some Sais slave rule. I think he opened a subject for a good discussion, but I didn't want to continue the discussion on the "Pretty up to date sims" thread as it would be rather off topic.

Harlequin wrote:That's a bit whack.

"By being a slave I will not only RP in a narrow band that's already difficult due to having few options, but also will be a tour guide and greeter."

I don't understand why it's so hard for sims to accommodate slave RPers. Is it -that- hard to make fun RP that isn't sex-doll and sim staff for slaves?

It's bizarre as hell, like somehow Gorean Slaves aren't playing characters like they would in other sims. Somehow there's a bunch of gorean sim admins who have for whatever reason decided that slaves/slave RPers are different than RPers in any other type of RP. I just don't get it. At all.



The fact is that yes, most people in SL Gor don't consider that slave RPers are just RPers like others. And it will never stop because for most of these slaves RPers, Gor is only a more exotic environment to experience domination/soumission, discipline and bondage fantasies with if possible, a master. Their focus is not the role play experience with a character which will grow, evolve, develop etc, but the DS feeling and they want to be treated like subs, IC and OOC. Their submission is the only thing they want to develop, RP is a tool for that.

For many people in SL Gor, the idea of Gorean RP as a slave character is just about serving drinks, welcome visitors, perform chores, serve and serve. In fact for those people, slaves are the window dressing in a scene, never a full active part of the scene. If they try to be a central character, they are princesses, whore attentions.

When in books, Norman didn't write paragraphs in describing a chore in details, this point doesn't count when you play a slave in most sims. It's the essential of the RP you get. I asked some slavers why chores were imposed with a certain way to RP them + obligation to record. Answer was always: "for slaves have something to RP".

I don't mind chores when I RP a slave, but I want to have the choice to RP effectively them - as background in a scene with another RPer, when the focus will be put on the interactions with this RPer - or FTB them and so, RP the outcome with the guy who would come check, emoting about what his character should notice. Not to mention that making with the mundane the essential of your RP is boring. These things can be just part of the background, something your character is considering doing, daily, without you need to RP them every time you log.

But in fact, it's even more dramatic. If you play a slave in these Old School Gor sims, be aware that at the end, you stop being considered truly like an adult, mature and able as role player to make your own choices. You are a little thing that those other people playing a free must protect like a kid (but you won't be protected against the crap they require that you RP).

For example, you may find such mention in slave rules:

5. Any slave may be punished for misbehavior by any Free person who is a Citizen of ... .
If the owner restricts punishments except by himself, the slave should not be in the city unless at the heel of her owner. Compensation may be claimed for damage.
- Visitors may report displeasing behavior to the slave’s owner for discipline.
**COMMENT: This is an OOC measure to prevent abuse of slaves by random abusers (i.e. non-Gorean, who abuse just because they can under the guise of this being Gor), which is less likely to occur among the citizens within the Home Stone.


Exactly, you play a slave, you are so, a potential victim of abuse. In these people's mind, you are not capable to say no, to tell some idiot, OOCly, that he can go fuck himself

Too, when I was in Sais, I inquired about the reason for their long and complex sale slave process (but Sais is not the same sim imposing it) I have been told that before, slaves who had been sold were back to the kennels, hurt, with negative feelings, after 15 days, because the owner was a jerk, was never online, or had left SL....
Allooooo???

It's really treating and considering slave rpers like children

So, here, the NCs which illustrate this point, that I got in my slave package (it's never in the OOC sim laws), the day when a friend and I tried the Sais experience (she got captured by a visitor before entering in the city, I RPed 3 days and I gave up. If you have some time to kill, enjoy...

First note, probably written in the mind that your principal goal when you start playing a slave is to find your dream master, is a notice listing a bunch of advices which will help you to make the good choice (remember? you're a kid and not mature to show good sense by yourself):

Prime Bbcode Spoiler Show Prime Bbcode Spoiler:
Considering the Personal Owner

We welcome you as slaves of the village and hope that your experience has been an exciting one so far. Hopefully, you've been spending time getting to know everybody and have thus far started to form relationships and bonds with all the players involved in our village.

The intake period will have allowed you to immediately start role-playing and serving in the village. The great thing about the institution of this period of time makes it so that people, other players, do recognize you as new and can introduce themselves as they see you. The number system allows you the ability to feel as though you have earned the name and clothing when you finally do make it through the first part of initiation. The uniformity of the intake experience also integrates you in to our society as a slave, not a unique individual, though you are, you are now simply new property to the village and other players can know and differentiate to treat you accordingly.

Sais is a full submersion Gorean RP sim and in all ways and means we try to give each of our players that true experience.

From this point you will have hopefully spent some time on your relationships within the village. Perhaps, you've started to form the bonds that can come with your service and rp here. You might or might not be passing from "Intake Slave" to "Kennel Slave". For those of you that have made it thus far, we are proud to have you with us and can't wait to see how your role-play progresses.

It is at this point that the administration and management team start to consider where you are at in your service. Some of you come to be village slaves and others of you are seeking personal owners. While we do spend time working with our village slaves and securing their happiness we also take in to consideration those that will pass from us to a personal owner.

In that same vein we have put together some questions and thoughts that should, perhaps, come to mind as you start to consider personal owners. We see far too many girls pass on to owners that they find they have nothing in common with and in the end we end up with unhappy slaves, unhappy owners, and negative feelings that come from it.

Sais has instituted some measure to assist you in heading toward a personal owner if that is what you choose. Some of these measures include: A "no sale" period of ten days within an owner tagging you for personal purchase. This will allow you to get to know the person/s you have decided might be a potential personal owner. Also, we require that personal owners be in the Sais group unless other arrangements are made. This will assure that your personal owner has some lasting power and you will not be moved from place to place to place.

Outside of these measures we have also compiled a small list of things you need to think about and depending upon your closeness to your potential owner/s, some things you might want to ask them. Mind you, this is only advice, but it might save your from potentially bad situations. Knowledge is the key to happiness and only you can make you happy so be wise about your developing relationships. We would rather you be completely happy because of careful selection than see you disappear because you ended up emotionally distressed by a haphazard one.

Thoughts to consider and questions are listed below. Please feel free to add to them and most definitely be vocal with your potential owner. They are not mind-readers, and only you can make them aware of your concerns.

1. How often is this person online?

** Do they match up to yours and are you willing to live with the absence if they don't?

2. Do you expect a RL involvement?

3. Do they expect a RL involvement?

4. Will you voice, phone, cam?

** The above questions are hugely important to figure out in a quick manner. Please make the other person aware of your limitations and expectations in this regard. Be extremely careful about offering personal information unless you completely trust this person. Be wary of a person that expects these things from you or attempts to force you to do these things. Report anybody that pushes and bullies you. Also, keep aware of people that want you to do these things but are unwilling to do the same.

5. How many are already on their chain?

6. How many more will they take after you?

7. Are you going to be happy with others on the chain?

8. What are these girls/boys like that are already on the chain?

9. Does this person have a free companion?

** It is extremely rare to find a personal that does not have others on the chain, nowadays. If you get easily jealous perhaps you should reconsider why you are on Gor, but outside that, you need to know how much time the person you considering will be spending trying to keep all their slaves or their free companion happy and balanced. Either be willing to accept a chain or stay as you are or you will end up miserable.

10. What are this person's expectations of you as a person?

11. Does this person have the same Gorean values as you?

12. Does this person have the same personal values?

** These are simple but very important. If your thoughts and ideals don't mesh disappointment will commence. Just remember, sometimes opposites do attract so these aren't always for sure but they are a good guidelines to understanding the person you've chosen.

13. Is this person overly dramatic in their role-play or out of character moments?

14. Does this person constantly change their mind in or out of character?

15. Does this person match up to you on a role-play basis?

** There is nothing harder than dealing with somebody that doesn't know what they want. If you are constantly up in the air about where you stand then you should consider what your Gorean life will be like with them. If you are too different you might have a hard time finding anything you have in common.

16. Does this person meet your needs online? (offline is something to be thought about on another level)

17. Is this person's motivations to you purely sexual?

** Some might want only a purely sexual relationship and your needs might be very few but make sure if you need -more- that this person matches up to those expectations. Some need more than a sexual relationship and require a whole huge package in the person they take a personal from. Make sure that they can meet your needs or at least meet you half way.

These are only a few thoughts, and there might seem to be a whole ton of things but you need to consider every detail to maintain the happiness and integrity of your experience. There is no reason that your SL and Gor experience should be diminished by lack of quality or putting yourself with people or persons that will inevitably cause you distress and dis-harmony.

Please remember that there are people that are willing to talk things through if you having a hard time. There is a great support system within the walls of Sais that start with its slaves, its free, and its admin.

Proceed in all joy and happiness!
Sais Kennel Staff


Here the famous process (made in the interest of the fragile poor little thing who plays the slave for she didn't get her little heart broken by some SL-Gor jerk....

Prime Bbcode Spoiler Show Prime Bbcode Spoiler:
Prospective Buyer:
Thank you for your interest in one of our kennel slaves. It is important to us that you purchase the finest quality slave and are happy with the purchase. For that reason we have implemented a tagging process that will help you to get to know your slave that you are interested in. Please review the process so you understand your rights and responsibilities.

Tagging of a slave is the prospective buyer's stated interest in the slave. It does not guarantee a sale, just your interest.


Once a slave has been tagged, she/he shall remain so until:
a) two hands (10 days) have passed.
b) the prospective buyer revokes the tag.
c) the kennel staff revokes the tag.

A slave may be tagged by more than one free person. At the end of the last expiring tag, one of the following will happen:
a) one or more of the tags may be revoked by the taggers.
b) one or more of the tags may be revoked by the kennel staff.
c) the kennel staff will determine which free to sell the slave to.
d) there will be an auction to determine the buyer. (no real lindens exchanged)

Only two slaves may be tagged by the same person at one time. In other words . . . you cannot have three tags down at once. Only two.

The ultimate decision to sell any slave shall be the sole responsibility of the head slaver or his/her designee. This decision may not be appealed and it is final.

Once the sale has been finalized, the HOB Kennel collar will be removed by a slaver and the new owner can then place their own collar. Until the sale is finalized, the slave remains the property of the kennels. They are required to serve all free as they had been doing. They may hand their leash to the free who has tagged them but may NOT add anyone as secondary owner on their collar, except slavers of House of Bohica Kennels. Kennel girls may ONLY wear the kennel camisk if they have earned it. If there is anything you wish to do with the slave and are not sure if you are allowed, ask a slaver.

The HOB Kennels shall have the right of first refusal if the slave is to be sold within 6 hands (30 days) of the sale. We have invested time and money into the slave and want to be able to purchase them back should you not find them pleasing.

OOC: We want you and the slave to be happy in the new relationship. Feedback from the slave will be considered before a decision to sell is made. Ultimately, the slaves are just that... slaves. They have no decision in to whom they are sold.


Just edifying but I have no illusion, Sais is not an exception... But if you chat with the slave rpers who joined these sims, they will tell you they are happy happy. Those non happy have just a very restricted choice of decent sims if they don't want to bother with this crap and get respected as role players.
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Tamar Luminos
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Re: Slaves and Gor RP sims

Postby Tamar Luminos » Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:07 pm

It's not rocket science- and yet, it's something that's been tangled up for many years now, so progress seems to be moving at a glacial pace:

If you treat all the people coming to your sim equally OOC, regardless of their avatar gender or chosen character- then it's a roleplay sim.

If you treat some of the people coming to your sim differently OOC (like expecting them to do "tours", or turn in notecards of their roleplay on a regular basis, or assuming they are only there for an OOC relationship), based on their avatar gender or chosen character- then it's a lifestyle sim.

The confusion/frustration comes about when you get a lifestyle sim proclaiming themselves to be a roleplay sim- refusing to acknowledge that their rules single out a certain type of character and treat them differently OOC, demonstrating a clear lack of understanding that in a roleplay sim, the character and the typist are two separate entities.

Now, say- if they were to amend their rules to say "all characters are expected to give tours if they are free to do so at the time" or "all characters are to submit notecards of their roleplay on a regular basis", or even have OOC "hookup" events for people who -might- be interested in OOC relationships, but without making it mandatory or limited to only slave characters, then they'd be treating all their players the same and it'd be cool to say that's a roleplay sim.

If they can start to see all their players as the same, people who like the genre/books of Gor and want to play characters in that genre with other people who like the genre/books of Gor, without singling out people who play slave characters for more work/less roleplay/special treatment etc., then maybe they would be able to call themselves a roleplay sim without looking hypocritical.

Conversely, if they like the way they do things, and the sim owner enjoys how they do things and refuses to make changes because the majority of the people playing there are happy with how things are- that's cool too! They should just be up front about being a lifestyle sim, not a roleplay sim and acknowledge it so there's no confusion.
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beth ronmark
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Re: Slaves and Gor RP sims

Postby beth ronmark » Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:03 pm

This is where my beef lies with the two note cards. And excuse my cursing ahead of time, but : BEING A SLAVE ON/IN GOR HAS FUCK ALL TO DO WITH SUBMISSION!

The note cards just further blur the line between SL and BDSM. I can also pretty much tell you where Sais got this from. Now, mind you, this was a LONGGGG bit a go, maybe Leel is still there, but he is a from the old House of Iaomai. They were the originators of blurring of the lines. I'm not defending Sais, not a fan of the sim. Just giving a bit of history.

As a slave player, I have an OOC right to tell anyone where to go and to shove off. If I'm not happy, I can freely leave the situation.

IC, well said slave is sold, oh well. Beaten? Oh well.

Too many women are coming in thinking that being a slave is all dreamy, that they IC have rights. That's submission darlings and your better served at a BDSM club. Slaves aren't precious little gems. They were animals, beasts of burden in most cases.
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Sasi
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Re: Slaves and Gor RP sims

Postby Sasi » Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:56 pm

I don't think these NC blur the lines between BDSM and Gor, actually. They show rather that their author do not consider the people playing a slave like mature adults, people who can make their own choices and who don't need to be taken by the hand.

Also, the lines between IC and OOC are as well blurred, as in these notes, the character is not separated from the typist

IC, the slaves are treated accordingly to the books, OOC, they are addressed as if they were kids.

And the sale process ensures that of course, the slaves contribute to the traffic as long as possible.
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Harlequin
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Re: Slaves and Gor RP sims

Postby Harlequin » Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:52 pm

It's something you see in the BDSM scene too, perpetuated by the princess types. This idea that submissive means childlike or unable to really think for themselves.
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Re: Slaves and Gor RP sims

Postby Cassie » Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:38 am

This all well done also because many men like BIMBO's. I have seen a friend of mine wearing some horrible pig tails purchased by her IC owner. By horrible I mean exceptionally 5 year old like.

I suppose in a real GOR like in our earth there are men who like such type of girl so can we really accuse anyone of portraying what they want?

The main issue I see when I consider playing the role is "What fun is there in the role?". The sex gets boring quickly and so is the bantering between slave girls.
I had a small group once of bully kajirae extorting favors from other slave girls but didn't turn quite as funny as I had planned.
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Re: Slaves and Gor RP sims

Postby Oor » Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:58 am

Harlequin wrote:It's something you see in the BDSM scene too, perpetuated by the princess types. This idea that submissive means childlike or unable to really think for themselves.


Also the fucking "submission is a gift" bullshit. No. Submission is one part of a whole and you're not giving anything more or less important than your partner(s) are just because what turns you on personally is being bottom - when it suits you, with consent and because you get something out of it.

Fucking BUGBEAR.

If anything, Gorean submission and submission in the context of BDSM are polar opposites. One is safe, sane and consensual - the other is dangerous, fucked up and non-consensual, saved only by the fictitious world and (often hollow) characters complicit in it.

More bugbear.
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Sasi
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Re: Slaves and Gor RP sims

Postby Sasi » Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:26 pm

You are right, Harlequin, I remember having noticed these kind of relationships in BDSM, when some subs were almost treated (and sought this kind of relationship as well) like children discovering the world.

But actually, there are many admins and sim owners who think that it's right to treat an adult RPer this way, -OOCly-. Because for that I noticed, ICly, the character is not treated like a BDSM sub, but like a Gorean slave, harsly, even if it's often the same narrowness, black and white mind, with onlineisms.

When you play a slave and want to be treated like a normal RPer, with no forced RP (being told how you must RP some situations, like chores), no OOC discrimination and when you don't want to rely on some silly sale process for the choice of your RP partner (slave owner) or because the sim wants you contribute to the traffic as long as possible.
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Re: Slaves and Gor RP sims

Postby BlueConover » Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:41 am

Sorry to buck the trend here and not jump on the "OMG THIS IS BULLSHIT AND SO UNFAIR!" Wagon.

The other side of the coin was all the ooc abuse and bullshit drama that gets flashed in ims and groups because of how bored a slave girl is.

People asked for notecards of rp from slave chores, so they knew that if they entered the tavern that the larma pies had been cooked and we could start eating them in the future,

that the desk had been cleaned but they missed the blood splatters in the corner so we can rp the itneraction of FAILING to actually do the chores.

These kinda rules didnt just spring out of now where they sprung from constant and regularly complaints and arguements about not having rp. not getting treated in a certain manner when they met their master.

Hell, I know one slave character that was aghast at how I did things because I didnt do them how she had been told she should be treated.

Ive had slaves bitch and moan about how Im abusing them because I dont whip and beat them half to death for an infraction but send them on a boring but informative trek for me.

Sometimes things evolve because its easier and less drama filled to do these things.
For ever enlightened smart and self aware submissve, you have a women that wont take any responsibilty for her own well being, AND causes drama threatening reports to LL for things done to them.

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Re: Slaves and Gor RP sims

Postby Harlequin » Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:09 pm

Just going to say that I've never seen a sim that had similar requirements. When we accepted shipments of cargo from Midian, I didn't have my people RP out every single small thing... because it's tedious. We'd do the fun stuff, and then either throw in things we missed for fun, or let others put something out there for us to roll with.

When you buy a slave goad from Cadence I absolutely do not stand alone in my workshop posting for 3 hours about building it. Why should a slave have to?

This all has me thinking though... I'm trying to start up the higher class tavern in Turia, and will need need NEED slaves to staff it, serve it, dance in it, get abused in it.

What can I do/offer to give RP, good RP, to those players, instead of just taking them for granted? Because I've noticed in most taverns the slaves "Serving" in it are either really poor, or are just going through the motions because they're treated, as we've said, like they're not real RPers.

I'm open to suggestions and ideas, because I want to make it a spurring point for RP for -everyone-. Except free women. The hussies.
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