Slave Training

Discussions related to Kajira, Kajirus, Bonds and Thralls.
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Elle Couerblanc
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Re: Slave Training

Postby Elle Couerblanc » Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:45 am

I feel like the trend in the last year in SL Gor regarding IC and OOC separation has come to a point of ridiculousness. I am not saying it is okay to treat slaves like slaves OOC but when it comes to gaining better knowledge and understanding you need some OOC discussion. We do this in school regarding literature, books, music, theatre etc. why not in SL Gor anymore? For example, when I read Shakespeare or Chaucer in my English Lit classes, part of the knowledge and understanding I gained regarding the author's work came from class discussions. What is so wrong with doing this in SL Gor? I have read, I don't know like 22 or so books now and I still need to talk over some of the points with others to get a good idea for my RP.
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Kaitlin
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Re: Slave Training

Postby Kaitlin » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:04 pm

Elle Couerblanc wrote:I feel like the trend in the last year in SL Gor regarding IC and OOC separation has come to a point of ridiculousness. I am not saying it is okay to treat slaves like slaves OOC but when it comes to gaining better knowledge and understanding you need some OOC discussion. We do this in school regarding literature, books, music, theatre etc. why not in SL Gor anymore? For example, when I read Shakespeare or Chaucer in my English Lit classes, part of the knowledge and understanding I gained regarding the author's work came from class discussions. What is so wrong with doing this in SL Gor? I have read, I don't know like 22 or so books now and I still need to talk over some of the points with others to get a good idea for my RP.


But you take it upon yourself to approach others rather than simply saying to the people you RP with in a given role that they are required to teach you. That seems to be the only issue being discussed here. Not the validity of OOC training. Its like saying Cor would be responsible for everyone in House Leblanc knowing how to RP and understanding the genre. He also would be responsible for giving OOC training because he chose his role. It makes no sense.
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Elle Couerblanc
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Re: Slave Training

Postby Elle Couerblanc » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:35 pm

Kaitlin wrote:
Elle Couerblanc wrote:I feel like the trend in the last year in SL Gor regarding IC and OOC separation has come to a point of ridiculousness. I am not saying it is okay to treat slaves like slaves OOC but when it comes to gaining better knowledge and understanding you need some OOC discussion. We do this in school regarding literature, books, music, theatre etc. why not in SL Gor anymore? For example, when I read Shakespeare or Chaucer in my English Lit classes, part of the knowledge and understanding I gained regarding the author's work came from class discussions. What is so wrong with doing this in SL Gor? I have read, I don't know like 22 or so books now and I still need to talk over some of the points with others to get a good idea for my RP.


But you take it upon yourself to approach others rather than simply saying to the people you RP with in a given role that they are required to teach you. That seems to be the only issue being discussed here. Not the validity of OOC training. Its like saying Cor would be responsible for everyone in House Leblanc knowing how to RP and understanding the genre. He also would be responsible for giving OOC training because he chose his role. It makes no sense.


I am not meaning Cor or those who take on leadership roles. Perhaps I wasn't clear. I am referring to those players who enjoy combining IC and OOC training or should I say IC training and OOC discussion. I don't really get the flack they sometimes receive for offering "training" in this manner.
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Kaitlin
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Re: Slave Training

Postby Kaitlin » Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:02 pm

Elle Couerblanc wrote:
Kaitlin wrote:
Elle Couerblanc wrote:I feel like the trend in the last year in SL Gor regarding IC and OOC separation has come to a point of ridiculousness. I am not saying it is okay to treat slaves like slaves OOC but when it comes to gaining better knowledge and understanding you need some OOC discussion. We do this in school regarding literature, books, music, theatre etc. why not in SL Gor anymore? For example, when I read Shakespeare or Chaucer in my English Lit classes, part of the knowledge and understanding I gained regarding the author's work came from class discussions. What is so wrong with doing this in SL Gor? I have read, I don't know like 22 or so books now and I still need to talk over some of the points with others to get a good idea for my RP.


But you take it upon yourself to approach others rather than simply saying to the people you RP with in a given role that they are required to teach you. That seems to be the only issue being discussed here. Not the validity of OOC training. Its like saying Cor would be responsible for everyone in House Leblanc knowing how to RP and understanding the genre. He also would be responsible for giving OOC training because he chose his role. It makes no sense.


I am not meaning Cor or those who take on leadership roles. Perhaps I wasn't clear. I am referring to those players who enjoy combining IC and OOC training or should I say IC training and OOC discussion. I don't really get the flack they sometimes receive for offering "training" in this manner.


Thanks for the clarification. I thought your comment was to further a point made earlier in the thread.

I personally think that helping the people on the sim get a good feel for and understanding of the genre they're playing in is actually the responsibility of the sim staff and "faction leaders"- which I can see a slaver being one of, just as I can see caste leaders being, the owner of a FW's tea house, the owner of a tavern, the owner of a bath house...


I have no problem with a mix, IC or OOC only training as long as it is a choice and the format of the class is clearly communicated. There are countless ways training can be done. I'll drop an example of a class I gave as part of a series into a spoiler. The class is clearly an OOC training class but in asking the players to act out what they are being taught and remain "in role" you do get a certain amount of RP experience that can be used IC in the future. It also provides a way to "train the free" as well. It is my preferred format for gorean training and anyone can do a class. It doesn't have to be done by a someone in the role of a Slaver.


Prime Bbcode Spoiler Show Prime Bbcode Spoiler:
[10:34] Mia Harcourt: thank you all for coming to the first RP Experience Class

[10:34] Mia Harcourt: The purpose of the class is to add realism to your role and make it more challenging and entertaining for you to portray and for others to enjoy and perhaps learn.

[10:35] Mia Harcourt: Something that I often forget when serving is that not all know what the items are in detail that I may be serving, their flavor, how they were prepared.

[10:36] Mia Harcourt: Today's class will be on preparing a Gorean breakfast to include collection, preparation and serving of Fried Tarsk, Yellow Bread with butter and honey and sliced fruit. The beverage will be chilled Bosk Milk. At the end of the class I will ask for some volunteers to perform the serving of the food after we get some background on our meal in the lesson. I hope after completing the class you will each be able to be more colorful in your serves and receiving serves if we have any Free joining us. Remember that each serve provides an opportunity to teach about this amazing world of Gor we have all been drawn to. First a simple quote on our meal then we will dig deeper.

[10:38] Mia Harcourt: At any time during the class please stop me with an @ for questions

[10:39] Mia Harcourt: a log of the class will be available following each class

[10:39] Mia Harcourt: "And put bread over the fire," I said, "and honey, and the eggs of vulos, and fried tarsk meat and a Torian larma fruit." — Assassin of Gor

[10:40] Mia Harcourt: Now that we have established that our meal is very much rooted in the books let's talk about some common items in the gorean kitchen to include the storage of food goods. For each class where we discuss food/drink preparation I will likely include this bit of information.

[10:41] Mia Harcourt: Common vessels used include, Tankards, goblets, footed bowls, clay mugs, plates, pitchers, cups and glasses. Utensils would include ladles, spoons (horn and stirring), eating prongs, knives and ulo. Cooking might be done in kettles, roasting pans and pots of various sizes over spits, metal racks, braziers, tripods or fire bowls. Storage areas may include cold storage/cold rooms/cold box although not chillas, meat sheds, meat racks.

[10:42] Mia Harcourt: "My house, incidentally, like most Gorean houses, had no ice chest. There is little cold storage on Gor. Generally food is preserved by being dried or salted. Some cold storage, of course, does exist. Ice is cut from ponds in the winter, and then stored in ice houses, under sawdust. One may go to the ice houses for it, or have it delivered in ice wagons. Most Goreans, of course, cannot afford the luxury of ice in the summer." — Guardsman of Gor

[10:43] Mia Harcourt: Just a reminder of our meal, we will be having fried tarsk, yellow bread with honey and butter and sliced fruit. Let's start with our main en tree the tarsk.

[10:44] Mia Harcourt: This is where I get to ask the audience questions... Does anyone know exactly what a tarsk is and how might we cook it if we were frying it for our breakfast? @ to respond

[10:44] BryanR Rickena: @

[10:44] Mia Harcourt smiles please tell us Master

[10:45] BryanR Rickena: Tarsk is porcine type animal, and there is bacon that is fried

[10:46] Mia Harcourt: sounds delicious Master and absolutely correct. Let me add something from the books. “Still later that afternoon some groups of small, fat, grunting, bristly, brindled, shaggy-maned, hoofed, flat-snouted, rooting animals had been herded in, also with pointed sticks, and they, too, had been guided into identical cages. We had looked out of our cage, our fingers hooked in the mesh, to other cages, some of them with girls in them, some with the fat, flat-snouted, grunting, short-legged, brindled quadrupeds. "Those are tarsks," said one of the Gorean girls.” — Dancer of Gor

[10:47] Mia Harcourt: A comment on the storage of meats. I was common to store food goods dried or salted. The use of cold storage is not as common as one would believe from our depiction of Gor in SL. So in your roleplay perhaps consider going out to the drying shed rather than the cold storage/cold box to retrieve your meat as well as commenting perhaps on the presence of salt. In this instance a very good item to note since Tarsk tends to be a very salty meat as described in the books.
"Tarsk meat tends to be salty." — Raiders of Gor

[10:48] Mia Harcourt: As you can see there is lots we can draw on there rather than simply saying "placed fried tarsk on the plate".

[10:49] Mia Harcourt: Now I have a sweet tooth so I don't mind moving on to the next item in our meal....Honey...“I saw small fruit trees, and hives, where honey bees were raised; and there were small sheds, here and there, with sloping roofs of boards; in some such sheds might craftsmen work; in others fish might be dried or butter made.” — Marauders of Gor.

[10:50] Mia Harcourt: When you have food items that are also found on earth draw from your knowledge of those things to paint a picture during your serve.
[10:51] Mia Harcourt: I am sure it was sticky in Gor just as it is on earth.

[10:51] Celadori Sakai giggles

[10:51] Freja Emerald: mmmm.. sticky *grins*

[10:51] Mia Harcourt: Now on to our bread...can anyone tell me another name for Yellow Bread

[10:52] Freja Emerald: @

[10:52] Mia Harcourt: thank you freda please go ahead

[10:52] Freja Emerald: no sure, but would guess sa-tarna bread as difference to black bread

[10:53] Mia Harcourt: yes that is right frida. "He sat, cross-legged, behind the low table. On It were hot bread, yellow and fresh, hot black wine, steaming, with its sugars, slices of roast bosk, the scrambled eggs of vulos, pastries with creams and custards." — Beasts of Gor.

[10:54] Mia Harcourt: I hope our discussion so far has made everyone hungry because we are about to put into practice what we have discussed

[10:55] Mia Harcourt smiles I would like to place you in teams and we will have you serve this wonderful breakfast

[10:55] Mia Harcourt: it is nice we have Free among us today because they will place the order

[10:56] Mia Harcourt: let me group you and we will get started

[10:56] Angie Phelan: Mia.. i have only 5 more minutes before i have to log for a few..

[10:56] Freja Emerald wiggles excitedly

[10:56] Mia Harcourt: thank you neimah for letting me know

[10:56] Mia Harcourt looks to the Warrior along the far wall, frida you and nura will partner to serve him

[10:57] Mia Harcourt: I hope you are hungry Master

[10:57] Erin Yarrowroot: I am.

[10:57] Brandi Alphaville: yes mia

[10:57] Erin Yarrowroot eyes the pretty mia as she leaves

[10:57] biebie Lionheart: May ive been execused please ?

[10:57] Mia Harcourt smiles to the kajira would you like to serve the Mistress

[10:58] Erin Yarrowroot: Greetings, slaves.


The class continues on with those playing free being served by those playing slave followed by some tips and critique on how to improve in actual RP.
Some people create their own storms, then get upset when it rains.

Once upon a time... Kait
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Conall
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Re: Slave Training

Postby Conall » Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:20 pm

Kaitlin wrote:
Gorm wrote:You have to "want" to improve or learn.


Thats the point.

If you want to be acknowledged as a fellow roleplayer, you have to strive to give your best in your choosen role and the wish to learn. Thats a thing which applies for every roleplayer but you cant teach the unwilling .. not ic and not ooc and as Gorm, i am annoyed also very often and i am asking myself, why is it that it is tolerated that some simply do not wish to have to learn but are allowed to be around to feed their kinks?

I am accused i would hate slaves in general :confuzed: , which isn't true as i only play my role but i am simply fed up by all the ones which wanna use me to fullfill their fantasy :mrgreen:

Sometimes i think that a gorean welcome center should be a big slave pen for slaves and a prison for the free and everyone should be forced to stay inside till they got it.
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Bara Mayako
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Re: Slave Training

Postby Bara Mayako » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:07 pm

Kaitlin wrote:I would also ask why would it be the responsibility of the Slaver to teach a player how to RP other than IC scenes? I see no problem with providing RP etiquette information but I believe it is a bit silly to expect another person to teach you how to RP and also OOC common sense. Usually that is done through observation and OOC experience and research.


Kait, this is something you and I agree upon.

Another point that I am finding myself more and more in agreement with you on is the value of the books. In spite of how poorly written I think they are, I do find that they do provide valuable insights. It is perhaps possible, without reading the books, if one is a very perceptive person, and is lucky enough to be exposed to characters who play the role well, or is pointed to one of the better websites or is given (*gasp, yes*) good notecard information, to adequately play in Gor, and they may get better in time; if you put enough effort into anything, then it is no surprise that you will (usually) improve. But even then, the books would still be a valuable resource that can help improve your understanding of the role. The first time I tried to read Hunters of Gor, after about an hour I had to put it down, I found the repetition and the stilted language extremely annoying and since English is not my native language, the boredom and annoyance prevented me from going on. The second time, I took a different approach and quickly read through the book; I had a feeling for when it would get annoying and just scanned over those parts and got through the entire work in 3 hours. That gave me a basis, and sometimes I would go back and re-read some parts, so all-in-all I think I've spent a total of 5-6 hours on that one book (I've since read a few more, all in the same way, and I am still not impressed with his writing, so I fully understand anyone who does not want to read them). However, reading the books is definitely no guarantee that people will look past many of the cardboard cutout descriptions and try to go any deeper than a caricature character, either. Still, it can't hurt to invest 3 hours in ploughing through one of the books (most of which are available for free if you are one of the many people who has no qualms about downloading works without paying for them). It may not make you an expert on Gor, but for most people, it will help to improve your roleplay in Gor.

However, I also agree that there is alot about playing the role in SL Gor that the books won't teach you, and you need to know, somehow.

One point where my opinion and yours may differ is this:

[10:44] BryanR Rickena: @

[10:44] Mia Harcourt smiles please tell us Master

[10:45] BryanR Rickena: Tarsk is porcine type animal, and there is bacon that is fried

[10:46] Mia Harcourt: sounds delicious Master and absolutely correct.


[10:52] Freja Emerald: @

[10:52] Mia Harcourt: thank you freda please go ahead

[10:52] Freja Emerald: no sure, but would guess sa-tarna bread as difference to black bread

[10:53] Mia Harcourt: yes that is right frida.


Notice that she refers to BryanR as "Master" (capital "M"), but to Freja as "freda" (sic), with a small "F"), in what is clearly an OOC section of the training. Particularly because the IC/OOC separation in Gor can be such an issue, I think it is important that in an OOC training, she demonstrate by example the difference; if she switched from calling a player by his name to calling him "Master" in the part of the training where the slaves are serving the master, it would help to make that boundary clear. If players later choose individually with one another to move that boundary, it is then their informed choice, and not influenced by a teacher who has muddied that for them.

But this is the only part that I have a problem with. Otherwise, consider us in agreement (for a change).
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Tamar Luminos
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Re: Slave Training

Postby Tamar Luminos » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:26 pm

Anyone have any more ideas about this:


What does seem to be missing in the list above is the involvement of various players beyond the Slaver & trainer in the development of a slave ready for the block. A few examples are the Scribe who works with them on language or the Physician who might test their responsiveness to the whip. This one dimensional way of looking at a slave house probably has quite a bit to do with its lack of appeal and the associated burn out of the few players that take on this role.



I really like this idea, and it got me thinking...and yes, I really do wish more people would do that. What if we made a list of suggestions along this line? Sometimes it helps to just get the ideas out there, give people an idea for something they can r/p. Because I really love the idea of using people actually -doing- things for their caste in the r/p and interacting with people in that fashion.


I'd like to see if anyone had any other ideas about slave training- suggestions for topics, what would be the most effective way to do it, what would be the most fun for people involved, etc.
"...to take truth for granted is not to know it. Truth not won is not possessed. We are not entitled to truths for which we have not fought." --- (Marauders of Gor, p.7)
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Kaitlin
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Re: Slave Training

Postby Kaitlin » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:48 pm

Bara Mayako wrote:Notice that she refers to BryanR as "Master" (capital "M"), but to Freja as "freda" (sic), with a small "F"), in what is clearly an OOC section of the training. Particularly because the IC/OOC separation in Gor can be such an issue, I think it is important that in an OOC training, she demonstrate by example the difference; if she switched from calling a player by his name to calling him "Master" in the part of the training where the slaves are serving the master, it would help to make that boundary clear. If players later choose individually with one another to move that boundary, it is then their informed choice, and not influenced by a teacher who has muddied that for them.

But this is the only part that I have a problem with. Otherwise, consider us in agreement (for a change).


Actually we are in complete agreement (for a change :lol: ) if this class were actual RP on a typical roleplay sim that wasn't also a mix of IC/OOC. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. The capitalization of free players names/titles and lowercase when addressing a slave is a carryover from text based gor that a few sim owners have not let go of particularly on lifestyle sims because their roots are in other platforms. Rather than communicating anything regarding OOC inequality it was a visual cue for role.
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Kaitlin
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Re: Slave Training

Postby Kaitlin » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:54 pm

Tamar Luminos wrote:I'd like to see if anyone had any other ideas about slave training- suggestions for topics, what would be the most effective way to do it, what would be the most fun for people involved, etc.


Something I have found that is fun is contests among slaves. It provides a great way to involve all roles. The funniest I have ever seen was being commanded by FW to race. The slave players got an opportunity to be analyzed and observe interaction between other players and their instructions for action were pretty clear so it didn't require as much "thinking on your feet".
Some people create their own storms, then get upset when it rains.

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Victualia
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Re: Slave Training

Postby Victualia » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:21 am

Conall wrote:
Kaitlin wrote:
Gorm wrote:You have to "want" to improve or learn.


Thats the point.


I am accused i would hate slaves in general :confuzed: , which isn't true as i only play my role but i am simply fed up by all the ones which wanna use me to fullfill their fantasy :mrgreen:

That is for me exactly the point but counting for the Free. I started my character to learn, I have not been a slave for years and thought I'll give it a try. Most of what I did from there on was training myself to make it easier for others. But I came to a point where my character was stucking, I could not go on, I needed help in training, but there was no one willing to give it and/or it was a problem of timezones. Perhaps as a slave I am there to fullfill fantasies, but sorry, they have to work to mold me into what they want. :D

Conall wrote: Sometimes i think that a gorean welcome center should be a big slave pen for slaves and a prison for the free and everyone should be forced to stay inside till they got it.


Like! :thumbup:

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