A Weak Act?

Discussions related to Kajira, Kajirus, Bonds and Thralls.

Is submission seen as a weak act?

1. Yes definitely you have given your freedom away.
2
3%
1. Yes definitely you have given your freedom away.
2
3%
2. Yes because it is demanded of a slave and given without thought
1
2%
2. Yes because it is demanded of a slave and given without thought
1
2%
3. Yes because now another to controls you.
0
No votes
3. Yes because now another to controls you.
0
No votes
4. Maybe in some cases but not all
11
18%
4. Maybe in some cases but not all
11
18%
5. No it is an act of strength
10
17%
5. No it is an act of strength
10
17%
6. No because it is demanded of all slaves.
1
2%
6. No because it is demanded of all slaves.
1
2%
7. Other and will explain
2
3%
7. Other and will explain
2
3%
8. No its a thought out choice.
3
5%
8. No its a thought out choice.
3
5%
 
Total votes: 60
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A Weak Act?

Postby Torrid Streeter » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:28 am

In a discussion with Cortez the other day we talked about submission and slavery. Is it a weak act? AN act of someone who is weak? An act of strength? Are slaves seen as weak?
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Re: A Weak Act?

Postby Jason Susenko » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:39 am

Torrid Streeter wrote:In a discussion with Cortez the other day we talked about submission and slavery. Is it a weak act? AN act of someone who is weak? An act of strength? Are slaves seen as weak?


Weakness is when one knows what they *should* do or *should* be, but don't have the courage or the willpower to move towards it. I don't think the act itself of voluntary submission is a matter of weakness or strength, but the decisions motivating it certainly are. Those're the questions to be looking at.
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Re: A Weak Act?

Postby grondar Quartz » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:51 am

I think it takes a strength of will to commit to your Master or Mistress , the act of submision in itself is required of all slaves anyway but to subjugate your own feelings and wishes to serve another is the act of a strong willed slave.
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Re: A Weak Act?

Postby Mynerva » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:37 pm

Jason Susenko wrote:Weakness is when one knows what they *should* do or *should* be, but don't have the courage or the willpower to move towards it. I don't think the act itself of voluntary submission is a matter of weakness or strength, but the decisions motivating it certainly are. Those're the questions to be looking at.


I very much agree with you - but I see your statement very much in a real life sense. This is in the role play section of the forum and I am not sure if rl submission can be judged the same as keeping things IC and basically just playing a role.

But maybe there are some very important similarities. People in rp might be worried what others think of them if they go the slave route and therefore not do it.

But to come back to your statement. We all know - or most of us know what we want deep down inside. To listen to that voice and then to decide to follow it can be very scary. I am not saying everyone has to follow it - we are all ultimately free do decide if we do or not. But not following it, in my opinion, does not make one stronger.

Complex subject! But no, following what you think is right for you does not make you weak.
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Re: A Weak Act?

Postby Mattie Lefavre » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:43 pm

My comments are to the global act of submission (RL or SL). It is not a weak act to follow that burning/aching desire within to push yourself forward for something you want. It’s cowardice to hide from it; weak even, if that is what is truly calling to you and you don’t act.

An act where you understand your place in the relationship, you embrace what you are and what you strive to be, where you cultivate that need and allow it to blossom about you, is never weak. Allowing yourself to have all the power in the world to make that decision, for someone else to have more power than you, is a brave, realistic and rewarding act.

Anyone that considers it weak, or calls you weak is uninformed about who you are, about what it means, and significance of someone recognizing within them what makes you complete.

How long did it take me to realize this and embrace it? 363 days.
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Re: A Weak Act?

Postby Alice McConnell » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:25 pm

ICly, it depends on who you are. If you are a panther, or if you are a free woman, you will see another free woman (or panther) submitting as a clear sign of weakness, for the most part. If you are an ordinary gorean man, you might think of it in the same way.

OOCly, we might think of it differently, but in character, there is no way that submitting will be seen as anything else, except, perhaps, as a 'neutral' thing, by some. One doesn't go "Be strong! Submit!" When you submit on gor, you yield, you give in. And in terms of the things the 'free' have, you will end up with nothing, since you will have stopped being someone that can own something, but have become something owned yourself.
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Re: A Weak Act?

Postby Mattie Lefavre » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:31 pm

Alice McConnell wrote:ICly, it depends on who you are. If you are a panther, or if you are a free woman, you will see another free woman (or panther) submitting as a clear sign of weakness, for the most part. If you are an ordinary gorean man, you might think of it in the same way.

OOCly, we might think of it differently, but in character, there is no way that submitting will be seen as anything else, except, perhaps, as a 'neutral' thing, by some. One doesn't go "Be strong! Submit!" When you submit on gor, you yield, you give in. And in terms of the things the 'free' have, you will end up with nothing, since you will have stopped being someone that can own something, but have become something owned yourself.



Not every character will see it as a weakness. I think you are stating an overgeneralization. I could see some women (free or panther) be conflicted with it, because she might yearn for that within her ownself but hasn't had the chance.

Submitting on Gor to "yield and give in" isn't true, for all. Again an overgeneralization. For many it's embracing, and accepting.

Overgeneralizations lead to "princes kajira," "doormat kajira," "weak men" "shitty Free Women," and "tree slut" stereotypes.

Again: Anyone that considers it weak, or calls you weak is uninformed about who you are, about what it means, and the significance of someone recognizing within them what makes you complete.
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Re: A Weak Act?

Postby Cortez » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:36 pm

"Man will always be attracted to the woman who reflects the deepest vision of himself, the woman whose surrender permits him to experience - or to fake - a sense of self esteem. The man who is proudly certain of his own value, will want the highest type of woman he can find, the woman he admires, the strongest, the hardest to conquer - because only the possession of a heroine will give him the sense of an achievement, not the possession of a brainless slut." - Ayn Rand


I think that submission is incredibly vulnerable act. If that means weak-- then so be it. I view it instead, as a realization that you have something someone else wants. Something they are willing to work for, and even to fight for. And if you have needs in you--to give yourself up to someone, that's not weak. Those are just needs. Knowing you can hold onto that until you've found the right person to give you back what you want, is as much a part of submission as it is of dominance. The submissive holds the power in knowing that she gets to choose who she submits to.

That, I suppose speaks more to OOC.
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Re: A Weak Act?

Postby E. Edward Gray » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:42 pm

Gonna steal and paraphrase a quote from a certain woman's profile..

Slaves and free women yadda yaddaa...

All women got coal in their stomachs..

Slaves light the coal a flame and burn brightly

Free women deal with all the pressure, caste, family, homestone, and turn the coal into a diamond..

Just a thought about it being a weak act, some could see the act of "giving in" as being a weak act, it's only made worse when people think about slaves being stupid, immature, childish, and then of course slaves encourage the stereotype with "sissy poo, giggles, candy, little one, pouty."

The way I see it is this, from a strictly IC roleplay perspective and I have voiced this on a few different threads and if I wanted to be quote ninja I could prove that as goreans go, I am spot on.

In the words of THE ROCK, "IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU WANT TO BE A SLAVE."

You see Norman says this to me in the novels, all women are born, all women are women, all women have vags and all men have their choice of women..

Would you say that a woman is submitting when she shows up in a sim in poof poof silks and says, "I iz slave, kolar nao"

Talk about topping from the bottom, any how as I get off subject, here is my point..

Men should get to pick which women are slaves, and which women are free, the best, the brightest, the most beautiful, the proverbial cream of the crop.. Men should desire and therefore remove the choice from women, women should struggle as long as they can, and when it comes to closure, those women who are free will deal with being unwanted for now, those that are slaves, deal with being slaves.
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Re: A Weak Act?

Postby Mudrun Sa » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:51 pm

Submission is the Strongest Force on Earth, submission is an act of love, devotion, placing your life in the hands of another and I'm not talking just how a slave submits to a Master I mean in the rawest and purest form of true submission and that is when we drop to our knees and cry out to the entity of our faith.

A collar around one's neck does not mean they're submitted to someone's will or not. Submission can be done from many view points, the Submit to live, is this a weak act, some say yes some say no.. life is a one time deal and one has to look how strong are your feelings for your princpals or how strong is your desire for life. Life is priceless and a gift. One can lay and wait for freedom while they live, death is a one time deal.


Submission can be also given in moments of passion when the heart, soul and fire within looks to another and you see a Master before you, this is not a weak act. To Submit is a Force that is hard to fathem til you're hit with it in the rawest form where you give all... and I'm not talking about just submission as a slave to a Master...

just a few of Sa's views on submission

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